What IS "plus size" for women?

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Plus-size model Crystal Renn fits in her own skin
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By SAMANTHA CRITCHELL, AP Fashion Writer
1 hr 12 mins ago
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NEW YORK – Crystal Renn was miserable as a super-thin model who had heart palpitations when she'd worry that there might be calories in Diet Coke.

Her moment of epiphany came when "I couldn't walk another step without being exhausted, or having hair clumps falling out." She knew she needed to live in the body she was supposed to have — specifically a curvy size 12.

In a new memoir "Hungry," Renn, now a plus-size model, exposes her struggles with weight, health and self-esteem, fueled by the industry she says she still loves.

That is, she loves it now that she has been accepted — even embraced — by the fashion world.

"I got to my lowest point, when I couldn't go lower, and it was either, `I'm going to die and not accomplish the dream,' or, `I can become a plus-size model and keep the dream,'" she said in an interview. "I am healthy now, the healthiest I've ever been in my life — both physically and mentally."

Writing "Hungry" with Marjorie Ingall for Simon & Schuster was an important part of the healing process, said Renn, 23.

She had told her story before, but always in a quick hit for some magazine celebrating the novelty of an hourglass shape on its pages. The book is her attempt to move the needle on how people — everyone from wide-eyed young girls to jaded fashion insiders — perceive beauty.

"I'd like to see everyone take on the attitude that there are women of all different shapes and sizes as `the beauty ideal,' and that it's not one type or another. There are women who are naturally a size 2 — you can't forget them, and that's discrimination the other way," Renn said. "All women bring something different to the table and we have to appreciate them all."

Some in the fashion, modeling and magazine industries have been receptive to the idea, she said, noting that she's still working with her fuller figure in Vogue, Glamour, on the runway with Jean Paul Gaultier and in ads for Dolce & Gabbana.

It's often not the typical "pretty girl" who makes the biggest splash anyway, she said, explaining that when a modeling scout first laid eyes on her as a chubby cheerleader, he was the only person other than her mother who said she was beautiful.

Still, Renn is not ready to declare that runways will be filled with curvy types anytime soon.

"I believe there is a cycle to everything — Wall Street, the housing market, and modeling, too. Back in the Victorian days, it was all about a full figure, in the '50s, it was about the boobs, in the '80s it was shoulders and in the '90s it was waifs," she said. "It can only go up from here."

In the more recent past, say 2008, Renn writes in her book that she started to see a greater variety of models on the designer catwalks, and we're not just talking some size 2s and 4s. There also were girls with different hair color, skin color and body types, she observed.

Fashion alone isn't to blame for the idea of carbon-copy beauty, nor is it to blame for all the girls out there with eating disorders, Renn said. But she added that fashion does help create the lens through which others, like the chubby cheerleader she was in Clinton, Miss., see themselves.

In hindsight, however, she cringes at her early modeling photos, as she focuses on the graying skin and lifeless eyes. Once she joined the "12+" group at Ford Models, Renn said she finally started seeing images of the young woman she knew she was meant to be.

(On the day she decided to switch gears of her career, she celebrated with a salad with salmon and nuts on it. It was, she wrote, a really big deal.)

Renn's favorite photo of herself was shot in 2004 by Steven Meisel for Vogue. It emphasized her mane of raven-colored hair and real cleavage.

"That shot — I knew this is my moment. I remember him saying, `We've got it,' and I remember thinking, `This is my time.' Everything I was working toward, taking a chance on becoming a plus-size model, following my dream, and now everything is happening in front of my eyes," Renn said.

The American edition of Vogue is unrivaled in its power in fashion publishing. Using plus-size models is not the norm, but it's not unheard of, and there is an annual issue that celebrates the idea of "shape."

The Meisel picture "is a quintessential Vogue portrait, taken by one of our most important photographers and styled by one of our important editors," said spokesman Patrick O'Connell. "And Crystal certainly is a beautiful model."

Renn has taken her mind off 24-7 dieting and is more involved in the lives of her friends and family, she said.

Flashes of fears about her thighs — the bane of her skinny-model time of her life — still cross her mind, but she has learned to get over them quickly: She'll find her "positives" to distract her.

"I love my cheekbones. I highlight them," she said. "I also love my eyebrows. I have good thick healthy hair — and that shows how far I've come."
 
Honestly, I think in our society 10 and above is plus sized. It used to be 16 and above.

And sizes themselves have gotten smaller. I have these Small pants from Express that are bigger than what their XL would be now lol

I read this thing once, maybe I can find it again, that in the 50s, a size 8 was actually what today we think of as 14.
 
ill be honest, as much as i rail against people (especially men's) perception of "how a woman should look"...i myself have ALWAYS been concerned to stay a single digit. I was a size 4 years ago, then a 6/7. Vil, YOU know ive had issues with that. I'm still a 7 now but i'm not going to the extremes that i did years ago in my early 20's.

when I look at Crystal, I dont see her as some "unusual" looking woman. She seems just fine to me. Every woman has a different body type, bone structure etc.

What's interesting to me is that one moment its being put out there that "the average size for a woman in america is 12-14 but THEN you see articles like the one in this threads initial post that say size 12 and beyond is "plus size"

and you're right. back in the 50's, Marilyn Monroe who was considered a standard of "beauty" , was a size 8 and she's referred to as "plus sized" in some retrospectives on her now!

go even FURTHER back (before any of OUR times) and women that would be considered "FAT" by todays standards were the standard...back in the middle ages and shortly there after, being MORE than "vuloptuous" and thick was where it was at.
 
We live in a society where the physical appearence defines who we are as a person. In the entertainment industry, it's a headlining news story when a rail thin actress is seen looking a little frumpy, or if they had to gain 30 pounds for a certain role. With how dominent the entertainment news is these days, it's no surprise to me that the standards of how thin a woman should be have lowered over the years. Actresses try to stay thin in order to get roles. Others then have to compete with them and become equally as thin. Then the 'regular folks' see how the magazines and tv reports are praising how beautiful their bodies are and feel like they have to reach that standard as well. It's a vicious cycle that everyone gets caught up in, including myself.

I say, if you want to be a size 1, then go ahead and try to be a size 1. But do it in a HEALTHY manner. If you're happy being a size 14, then more power to you.
 
I don't mean this in an offensive way, Sam, honestly, but:

It's really easy to say "more power to you" but that isn't the world we live in.
 
I don't mean this in an offensive way, Sam, honestly, but:

It's really easy to say "more power to you" but that isn't the world we live in.

that lends itself to what crystal was saying in her interview. she doesnt expect to see a runway full of "plus sized" models anytime soon, although there IS more diversity on the runway now than ever before (in regards to race, hair type, and yes even sizes beyond 2 to 4 lol)

the time we live in now is still glorifying the "waif thin" look. can you imagine what it would have been like if we had lived in the middle ages or around that time? even in the early days of america's 13 coloines...if women (and certainly men) were a little "thick" or even plump, it was a sign they were living well.

like i admitted earlier and like sam said...its easy to be caught up in the image issue. im quite happy being a 7. i LOVED being a 4 but a 7 is GREAT and i'm doing what i can to stay here because honestly? I dont want to be anything more than a 7. i cant even IMAGINE myself beyond this size.

is that a healthy attitude? I dont know...i guess i'd have to ask an expert but at least im not going to diet extremes or anything crazy like that. I'm just doing what i can to keep my metabolism up, staying physically acative and drinking TONS of water.

for women over 25...metabolism is a big issue with regards to weight anyway.

and something that still bothers me...why is it that WOMEN are the only one who discuss this? why do you STILL see (on tv and in real life) men who are portly or downright overweight talking about they have to have a thin woman or a "hot chick" which usually is defined as a woman under size 12 when they themselves arent even a size 12...they're a frickin 42!? LOL
 
There's a big difference in how people treat a size 7 versus how they treat a size 14...

i know that...but it SHOULDNT be that way. remember, i mentioned twice that i often RAIL against the way other people (men in particular) try to dictate a woman should look especially knowing its for their own selfish reasons.

you totally ignored everything else i said though, i WOULD like your thoughts on that too. :)
 
and something that still bothers me...why is it that WOMEN are the only one who discuss this? why do you STILL see (on tv and in real life) men who are portly or downright overweight talking about they have to have a thin woman or a "hot chick" which usually is defined as a woman under size 12 when they themselves arent even a size 12...they're a frickin 42!? LOL

I will tell you this, I see this problem lying MUCH more with women than with men.

Most men I know do not demand a waifish woman- in fact, I know a lot of guys that would refer a woman with more meat on her bones, lol.

I see this as an issue that women often hammer other women with, or an issue concerning a certain type of guy that young women find attractive. I see them...preppy meatheads who berate young women for not being a size 4. And young women beat the door down for their spiky hair, khakis, and pink shirts.

I find myself constantly shaking my head as "normal" guys stand on the sideline and watch the douchebags get mobbed by young women who are just waiting to have what little self-eteem they DO have be buried under their scrutiny and the competition for their affections.
 
I don't mean this in an offensive way, Sam, honestly, but:

It's really easy to say "more power to you" but that isn't the world we live in.


What I meant by 'more power to you' is that there ARE woman out there who love being plus sized. They don't want to be just skin and bones; they want a voluptuous and curvy body. Size doesn't matter to them, that's all I was trying to express.

I remember even watching an MTV True Life documentry about three woman who's goal was to continue to be overweight because they found it sexy and they loved the way they looked.

In this society skinny IS in. I would say 90% of woman want to be thin because it's socially acceptable. However there is that 10% out there who just don't care about being overweight.
 
I work in retail and technically a size 12 to 14 is an XL by their standards, but that's not to say that most girls I know in my life are size 10 - 14 and I would never even consider them to be a plus sized woman, they look healthy and to ME anyway they don't look fat at all.

I've struggled with weight my entire life at one point going from 234 to 189lbs in the span of three months on a nicotine/caffeine/ephedra diet. It was completely unhealthy but I didn't care and when I reached 189 I collapsed. My body couldn't take what I was doing to it and I spent a few days in the hospital. The sick thing was to me at the time, it was worth it. I was at the weight I wanted to be, which even then was 6 lbs more than I should be according to my height.

I know what it's like to struggle with body dysmorphia and I sure as hell noticed the difference in the way I was treated at the highest and lowest of my weights, ESPECIALLY when it came to the gay scene and the dating world. Before, I was completely ignored, and when I dropped the weight, all of a sudden I was a "hot" commodity, and was invited to so many more things than ever before and to be quite honest it really pissed me off.
Gay men I think fit into this category because alot of us have an unhealthy obsession with our bodies and looks and if you don't have washboard abs you are unworthy of love.

I stopped my dangerous lifestyle and yes I did gain weight, weight that I felt suited me more, shaped me better and to I have to say I am probably happier now than ever before.

I do think we attach unfair standards to weight and how people look, but even the fattest person in the worlds judges other fat people.

Fat is the only acceptable "niche" to make fun of. No matter what even if you are a Republican Pro Abortionist Lesbian Jewish Monk, if you're fat, you are a bigger target, we've made it ACCEPTABLE to degrade and make fun of people bigger than us and it is a SICKNESS in this world. As long as we see others that are bigger than us we feel better than ourselves, we make fun of them to feel better, and when we see somebody skinnier than ourselves, we make fun of them to feel better.

We need to not focus on WEIGHT and treat people like PEOPLE.
 
Persephone
Persephone
great post. :)
In the UK in my experience it's more a case of over a size 16 is plus size and generally clothing wise it's 18+ which makes me a full on plus size at the moment. I say at the moment, as I have bounced from a size 10 to a 22 a few times in my life now so i'm used to the different way you get treated when your classed as fat.
 
I'm curious.. I thought UK sizes are different? Are you BIGGER or SMALLER if you were shop in the states? I know random haha.
 
I do know this one...a 10 over here is an 8 in America, I think. It might be the other way round...:p

Wow, this was a helpful post!
 
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