Archon
Rising Star
I'm not talking tea parties with doilies and crumptes, but the kind protesting our high taxes. What do you think about them? Will they lead to any positive change? Will there be a lasting effect?
Tea Parties
- Thread starter Archon
- Start date
Rampage
I am a fucking god.
I doubt it. It is not lost on me that anyone who can afford to take the day off, travel and then dump tea into a body of water can afford their taxes.
Karma
Heart Attack
at the time the historic "tea party" happened, TEA was actually a precious commodity and a source of revenue and so when the colonists dumped the tea into the water then, they were doing more than just making a statement, they were hitting the government in its pockets.
NOW? its really nonsensical to me. first of all its largely the republicans and conservatives who are trying to complain a mess that THEY created which Obama is now trying to fix.
THere were some demonstrations quite close to my job , which is just steps away from the state capitol in nashville and one woman even got run over because her dumb ass was in the middle of the street trying to yell at cars and block traffic LOL!
NOW? its really nonsensical to me. first of all its largely the republicans and conservatives who are trying to complain a mess that THEY created which Obama is now trying to fix.
THere were some demonstrations quite close to my job , which is just steps away from the state capitol in nashville and one woman even got run over because her dumb ass was in the middle of the street trying to yell at cars and block traffic LOL!
Archon
Rising Star
Whether or not one can afford the taxes, isn't really the point. The point is that workers should be able to keep more of the money they earn. I'm not going to defend all of Bush's fiscal policies, but more governemnt spending (and thus even higher taxes) isn't the answer. Remember, a government that is big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have.
And Spell, the tea is just a symbol. Everyone knows (I think) that these protests won't affect the government financially, but hopefully it will remind those in power (Republican and Democrat alike) of what can hapen when people are pushed too far.
Rampage
I am a fucking god.
If the protest was nonpartisan, it would resonate more. It is not, and it doesn't.
I find it ironic that these protest were help in public parks (paid for by taxes) with police protection and crowd control (also, taxes).
I find it disturbing that many of the signs were anti-Obama, complete with racist slogans and the same tired personal attacks from the campaign. He has run the country what, 2 months at most? How could they be so mad with him?
I find it ironic that these protest were help in public parks (paid for by taxes) with police protection and crowd control (also, taxes).
I find it disturbing that many of the signs were anti-Obama, complete with racist slogans and the same tired personal attacks from the campaign. He has run the country what, 2 months at most? How could they be so mad with him?
Karma
Heart Attack
speaking of that (racist signs and such), DHS reports that the number of active hate groups with RIGHT WING allegiance has risen up 12 % since 4 years ago and the spike is directly linked to Obama's winning the election.
DHS also "warns of right wing extremism" behavior being more rampant now.
i
DHS also "warns of right wing extremism" behavior being more rampant now.
i
Archon
Rising Star
I read some excerpts from that report. According to their definition, almost everyone I know is a RIGHT WING EXTREMIST. I'm glad people are finally starting to call the government out on their overspending. If we don't do something we'll turn around (one day soon) and find that our taxes have grown to 60% of our pay. That would be unacceptable. Smaller government, more personal freedom (and responsibility), fewer taxes...that's the ticket.
Flashforward
Overachiever
The "protests" today were some of the stupidest displays of right wing lunacy I have ever seen. First, do they not know what "teabagging" is? For a party that hates gays with a passion, I find it extremely ironic that their organizers would use that term to brand their "movement." It's even worse when some of them dangled two tea bags in front of the camera as a photo op. Secondly, where the hell was the outrage for the last eight years when Bush was a spending black hole? There's also difference with regard to how spending is being conducted then and now. As of this moment, even the most conservative economists have agreed that the government has to jump start the economy with a massive influx of capital, the same way that you shoot current or adrenalin into a dying patient. Back then, we were spending for a permanent military occupation with absolutely no end, while giving tax breaks to the rich, who basically destroyed our economy with their reckless investing. If these people who object so vehemently to government spending were complaining about the way we were pissing through money back then with the same passion they exhibited today, I'd find them a lot more credible. George Bush literally looted the treasury and turned a surplus into a deficit that amounted to trillions of dollars, all while destroying the reputation and well-being of this country in the process. Where was the outrage then? As it stands, today's "teabagging" was nothing more than performance art. Thirdly, nationwide they managed to get a little more than 100,000 people out to their protests. The vast majority of the larger gatherings (1,000 or more) took place in rural areas where the taxes of individual Americans are actually decreasing because they make less than $250,000. Naturally, it made a lot of sense for them to come out and protest higher taxes when their taxes are actually going down, right? The ignorance and idiocy of these people is mind boggling.
Add into the mix that this was a corporate-funded and organized operation, and we have a sham of "perfect storm" proportions that once again illustrates that the right wing of this country is completely out of touch with average Americans, and that they, as a party and segment of the population, are morally and intellectually bankrupt.
Add into the mix that this was a corporate-funded and organized operation, and we have a sham of "perfect storm" proportions that once again illustrates that the right wing of this country is completely out of touch with average Americans, and that they, as a party and segment of the population, are morally and intellectually bankrupt.
Archon
Rising Star
Yeah, I'm not even going to bother with that. I'll just say that I, for one, do not "hate gays with a passion." I know a lot of conservatives, but I don't know anyone who feels that way towards gay people. Liberals love to paint with a very broad brush and this is just another example.
If you think the demonstrations were so idiotic, might I suggest that you volunteer to pay more taxes? I don't get the animosity here, I thought everyone was in favor of lower taxes. If that makes me "out of touch" I'm admittedly happy to be there.
If you think the demonstrations were so idiotic, might I suggest that you volunteer to pay more taxes? I don't get the animosity here, I thought everyone was in favor of lower taxes. If that makes me "out of touch" I'm admittedly happy to be there.
Rampage
I am a fucking god.
I would pay higher taxes for free health care. TODAY.
Flashforward
Overachiever
My family is actually situated in one of the highest tax brackets in the country and we feel that we pay too little. Many others I know feel that way, and I have heard similar sentiments voiced by other working professionals who make far more than $250,000 a year. Taxes are a civic duty, and if you don't feel the need to pay them, then you shouldn't expect smooth roads or a competent fire or police department. For me, paying taxes is patriotic, but then again, I don't fear the government and demand that I have a right to bear arms to defend myself from it (and I lived through the Bush era...barely).
And if you honestly don't think that there weren't gay bashers in the crowds that gathered today, you're kidding yourself. Plus, you missed the main point of my comment, which was to highlight the irony that homophobes would describe their protest with the same term as a crude sexual act.
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AMEN! :xyxthumbs:
Archon
Rising Star
But then it's not really free, is it?
Rampage
I am a fucking god.
Compared to the costs we suffer now? YES. By a LOT.
Karma
Heart Attack
exactly.
we already pay out of our asses for health care that isnt even guaranteed, no matter how long you've had the coverage and paid on it. i know women who have had "good" health insurance for YEARS and paid on it and then when they are diagnosed with breast cancer, the insurance company DROPS THEM!? wtf...
id rather pay more taxes and get a TRULY equal, guaranteed healthcare system than what is going on NOW.
Karma
Heart Attack
related story
more proof that this was HARDLY about "concern for the public"
http://www.facebook.com/ext/share.php?sid=85186208625&h=e0FV6&u=SZaW8&ref=nf
more proof that this was HARDLY about "concern for the public"
http://www.facebook.com/ext/share.php?sid=85186208625&h=e0FV6&u=SZaW8&ref=nf
Flashforward
Overachiever
Some additional photos that prove that this was hardly the average American that participated in these protests.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/16/10-most-offensive-tea-par_n_187554.html
FYI, here in my state, we had a few hundred Republicans picket the state capitol. In the most ethnically diverse state in the union, 95% of the protestors were whites who live in some of the wealthiest parts of the state. Dedicated to the common folk, this was not.
Archon
Rising Star
This really intrigues me because I have never in all my life heard anyone say they think they should pay higher taxes. Do most Democrats want higher taxes? I mean, if you want to pay more, go ahead, there's no law against that and I'm quite certain the government would not object. I'm not saying we shouldn't pay any taxes, I'm just not happy with the current tax rate.
Personally I don't mind paying for health care. But there is NO WAY I would EVER want the government to be in charge of that. Just look at what a bang up job they've done public education! You really want those same people in charge of our health? More government is not the answer.
Rampage
I am a fucking god.
But look at the job they do with the military. Unparalleled. And the FDA and CDC? The best in the world. The Census? Great. Military and Congressional healthcare? The best in the world. Even education has been pretty decent overall, at least until the Republicans introduced a program they failed to fund.
I think they'd do fine. It has to be better than what we have now, the medicine unavailable to many of us over money. People dying over money. UNACCEPTABLE.
Flashforward
Overachiever
It's not that all Democrats want higher taxes. It's just that Democrats are naturally egalitarian by ideology and see the government as the means by which to solve problems that individuals cannot solve on their own, like natural disasters, healthcare, global warming, helping the poor, survival in times of economic crisis, etc. There are some problems that are so big that they require the assistance of the government to make things work.
Also, it's not that government doesn't work, it's that it doesn't work under certain administrations. After all, the government ran perfectly fine under FDR, Truman, Eisenhower, LBJ, Nixon (yes, even him), and Clinton. It's only when Reagan ascended to power with his anti-government mantra that people saw government as the "problem." Additionally, people no longer saw government the way that the original conservatives like Barry Goldwater saw it, as an impediment to individual growth, but rather they saw it as an evil force that threatened to take over their lives and turn them into slaves of a social order established by a centralized commune. Government became the enemy, and for years, people assumed that everything it did went against the interests of the people, and that the ideal government would be one that was as small as possible.
Well, guess what, when you come into government believing that the government cannot work, it's like a self-fulfilling prophecy. You MAKE the government not work. If you underfund programs because you believe that the government can't administer them properly, you make it not work. When you contract everything out to independent entities because you have a strong belief that government can't do the job (when in fact they could do a better job for less as many studies have shown), government doesn't work. When you refuse to regulate the market because you believe that the "invisible hand of the market," i.e. greed, can best dictate how our economic system functions, you make it not work. And FYI, public education used to work, and that's why we had an upwardly mobile, educated populace coming out of WWII. When you refuse to fund it and give no incentive for quality educators to stay in the system, you doom it to failure. Additionally, Medicare is actually one of the most effective programs that we have in the United States, and if you want to go strictly by definition, it is a limited form of socialized healthcare that is funded by tax revenues, the thing that you claim to fear most.
For an administration to be anti-government makes absolutely no sense. It's like applying for a job, then telling the interviewer that you intend to do as little as possible if hired, because you feel that the system runs best when you don't interfere with it. It's counter intuitive and wholly illogical, because it entails your failing to upkeep the entity that you are being hired to supervise and maintain. To me, it just shows that if you scare people enough and fill their heads with fallacious, fictional ideas about big brother, that they'll buy into anything and let you do anything you want so long as they are allowed to believe that they are in control of their own lives. What we've learned from the last eight years is that getting rid of "big" government didn't give us more freedom, nor did it inspire an outbreak of personal responsibility, but rather it just made the lives of ordinary people more difficult because the government was less effective and could no longer provide the people with the services they took for granted and never knew they depended on. Plus, when everything collapsed, we were told that we were on our own, and that we could not be helped, mainly because by that point, our government had been dismantled by incompetent leadership and mismanagement. That's not my idea of good government.