Phoenix: a good "woman" RUINED

[Karma]

Phoenix= the name means different things to different people here depending on their age and comic book experience.

for ME...it was always about Phoenix II (who , up until 1986 was in fact Jean Grey). Phoenix III (Rachel) was an excellent homage to the name and mantle of Phoenix in the 80's when the X-men were being dogged out and needed someone with POWER to help them against such foes as the Sentinels, the Beyonder and the Hellfire Club..
Phoenix's origins and history were rather cleverly handled in Excalibur in the 90's when it seemed that Rachel would finally posses the FULL power of the Phoenix Force and carry the mantle indefinately but she then went on to carry herself quite well with Excalibur...before being shunted away to make room for over hyped characters like X-man, Cable and the rest of the retread "alternate reality summers/grey children". (which is proof itself that the writers of the 90's obviously didnt have much talent or imagination.


Rachel has since returned and Phoenix IV did nothing but CHEAPEN the name and mantle of Phoenix...how SAD and PATHETIC was it that this was JEAN GREY herself! Since Phoenix IV's death...the history of Phoenix has been muddled and remixed to the point of nausea.

The name "Phoenix" once sparked fear as far out as the Shi'ar, Skrull and Kree empires...and she was still something of a misunderstood "Mystery" among the higher powered heroes on earth.

But NOW..she's become a CRUTCH and a pathetic plot device. There's nothing grand or scarey about PHOENIX anymore.

some people dont even appreciate the impact that Phoenix II and III had because its been so long....how SAD is it that half assed stories like "ENDSONG" are now considered a "point of reference" for Phoenix and the "Phoenix/Dark Phoenix Saga" has become a mere foot note or completely IGNORED!?

Phoenix is about to become linked (yet again) to another stupid ass storyline involving the White Queen and "Three in one" (Stepford Cuckoos) in "Warsong".

This to ME is a really sad thing lol..that they resort to using Phoenix as a plot device for the most boring and ridiculous storylines in the X universe to date.

WHAT, if anything could be done to restore HER to her former glory? should there be a storyline featuring Phoenix (patterned after II or III ) facing off against a cosmic foe (witness the violent fights between Phoenix II and Fire Lord or Phoenix III and the Beyonder)?

What do you think?

 

[Arkaine]

To be honest I never had the hatred for Jean as a character. In fact, when we pre-1986 (When Phoenix II was, in fact, Jean Grey) I even liked her. During Inferno, while I preferred the Madelyne Pryor character, I felt a connection for Jean Grey's motives and even respected how she fought hard for her HUSBAND'S child. However, they made a huge mistake at the end of that saga and that was to give Jean the Phoenix Force.

However, since then the Phoenix has been tolerable. Yes, it disrespected the past Dark Phoenix Saga and so forth but it wasn't in your face 24/7. Hell, even Onslaught -- Xavier's evil form -- was able to extinguish it on the Astral Plane. Thus it became just a facet of Jean's powers. Something cool to draw on. But certainly not the be-all and end-all of mutantdom.

In the 90's Jean had some very exciting moments just being her own character -- being an exceptionally strong woman in her own right. When fighting the Acolytes for example, she telekinetically flung one through a roof and over a castle wall in the heat of the moment.

Then came the second movie and Marvel wanted in on the Jean Grey action. Suddenly Jean became The Phoenix. Suddenly it was the sole reason for the character to exist. If there was a problem you can either bet that the Phoenix was either the cause or the solution to that problem. It created a buffer around the character. In short, Jean was no longer Jean. Jean was simply some sort of overly powerful being.

Anyone read Endsong? -- How hideously attrocious was that? Seriously? They solved it using love? I seriously felt like vomitting over the pages of the comic. It was tacky and cliche.

And that's the big problem with Phoenix now. She's gone tacky and cliche. She no longer is even a shadow of her former self.

Personally, if I was going to rewrite the Phoenix and get things back to her being a threatening villain I would do thus: Separate her totally from Jean. TOTALLY. Have her as a separate entity entirely. Once separated I'd give her some time off, away from comics. Not even have her mentioned. 10 years down the road, when readership has been introduced to new readers maybe, MAYBE, have her return in the form of a threatening presence... with a nice build up like they did with Onslaught. Maybe even have it under a different name.

I don't think anything other than a very long break though can really solve the problem.

 

[Karma]

To be honest I never had the hatred for Jean as a character. In fact, when we pre-1986 (When Phoenix II was, in fact, Jean Grey) I even liked her. During Inferno, while I preferred the Madelyne Pryor character, I felt a connection for Jean Grey's motives and even respected how she fought hard for her HUSBAND'S child. However, they made a huge mistake at the end of that saga and that was to give Jean the Phoenix Force.

basically retconning it to say that Phoenix AND Madelynne were merely facets of Jean instead of them being the two very seperate and distinct beings that they had been before Jean came back into the fold. Jean was STILL redundant in the presence of FAR MORE POWERFULL telepaths (at the time) such as Psylocke and the White Queen.

However, since then the Phoenix has been tolerable. Yes, it disrespected the past Dark Phoenix Saga and so forth but it wasn't in your face 24/7. Hell, even Onslaught -- Xavier's evil form -- was able to extinguish it on the Astral Plane. Thus it became just a facet of Jean's powers. Something cool to draw on. But certainly not the be-all and end-all of mutantdom.

that was when i panned the whole Onslaught story...Onslaught, no matter WHAT he was should have been able to over power PHOENIX (especially if it had been Phoenix II). COSMIC BEING vs MUTANT GONE MAD? you do the math

In the 90's Jean had some very exciting moments just being her own character -- being an exceptionally strong woman in her own right. When fighting the Acolytes for example, she telekinetically flung one through a roof and over a castle wall in the heat of the moment.

but she was still JUST a telekinetic. NO match for Psylocke or Emma at the time in a telepathic fire fight which Psylocke prooved several times until they began DUMBING psylocke down to make Jean somehow seem more competent and capable a telepath which she had NEVER been before (even before becoming Phoenix in 1976)

Then came the second movie and Marvel wanted in on the Jean Grey action. Suddenly Jean became The Phoenix. Suddenly it was the sole reason for the character to exist. If there was a problem you can either bet that the Phoenix was either the cause or the solution to that problem. It created a buffer around the character. In short, Jean was no longer Jean. Jean was simply some sort of overly powerful being.

the movies damaged the comic because the comic started changing to some how mirror the movies...and MORE continuity was going out of the window.

Anyone read Endsong? -- How hideously attrocious was that? Seriously? They solved it using love? I seriously felt like vomitting over the pages of the comic. It was tacky and cliche.

that horrible, misbegotten ABORTION of a storyline was a joke from start to finish...let alone the fact that Phoenix IV (Jean herself) had been so easily killed by Magneto and that laid the foundation for this ridiculous story...since a "fractured and insane Phoenix" needed a host. the whole idea that she NEEDED "Scott's eye blasts" to fuel her? give me a break Phoenix II (and III) never needed ANYTHING that anyone on Earth could provide. she ATE STARS for christ sake.

And that's the big problem with Phoenix now. She's gone tacky and cliche. She no longer is even a shadow of her former self.

because Jean Grey is tacky and a JOKE. SHe's given credit for things that OTHER people did years ago when she was still "Dead"...and she was the WEAKEST incarnation of "phoenix' (phoenix iv) ...so easily subdued and NEVER using her powers the way Phoenix II or III did.

Personally, if I was going to rewrite the Phoenix and get things back to her being a threatening villain I would do thus: Separate her totally from Jean. TOTALLY. Have her as a separate entity entirely. Once separated I'd give her some time off, away from comics. Not even have her mentioned. 10 years down the road, when readership has been introduced to new readers maybe, MAYBE, have her return in the form of a threatening presence... with a nice build up like they did with Onslaught. Maybe even have it under a different name.

I don't think anything other than a very long break though can really solve the problem.

See, i felt that if they had left RACHEL as Phoenix III...it would've been alright. Stan Lee himself said that Rachel was supposed to be the daughter of Phoenix II. When Rachel gained the FULL power of the Phoenix (post Necrom storyline in excalibur) the Phoenix Force ITSELF endorsed Rachel and told her that the power would rest on her shoulders from there on. Rachel , as Phoenix III was an excellent "next generation" Phoenix to pick up where II left off but then SHE was shunted off to make way for pathetic plot gimmicks like Cable, X-man and every other "alternate child from the grey/summers clan" they could come up with

I believe that Phoenix could do fine if Rachel took the name and mantle back...and they left it with HER and had HER take to the stars and hang out with her cosmic peers , since Phoenix IS a cosmic force. SHe shouldnt be simply CONTAINED in the x-men's pocket of Marvel. also, having Phoenix involved in Marvel wide cross overs, duking it out with some cosmic foes (witness P II vs Firelord or P III vs Beyonder) could help.

If they don't want to do that...then yes, take Phoenix AWAY for a good long way..dont let JEAN or ANYONE ELSE have her (and please lets not revisit that damn "white hot room") and bring her back as a bitchy cosmic being.

 

[sinosleep]

Honestly, I think what Phoenix needs is a good LONG rest. I don't know much about Phoenix III but I do know a good chunk about the others. Even if Phoenix III was as good as you say (and I'm not doubting you), I think the entirety of the saga was ruined the instant they retconned Jean Grey out of being Phoenix II and instead made her Phoenix IV.

In my opinion Phoenix II is the ONLY one that has ever mattered. She had, by far, the biggest effect on the MU and the X-Men in particular and went out in what MANY consider one of the best comic book deaths of all time.

I really think they need to just scrap the concept for a couple of YEARS and then they need to DISASSOCIATE it from Jean Grey. I mean lets face it, Jean Grey has become a joke, and so by default the Phoenix has become a joke. I mean lets remember her last words to Scott after Magneto 'killed' her, AGAIN.

"All I ever did was die on you."

 

[Arkaine]

basically retconning it to say that Phoenix AND Madelynne were merely facets of Jean instead of them being the two very seperate and distinct beings that they had been before Jean came back into the fold. Jean was STILL redundant in the presence of FAR MORE POWERFULL telepaths (at the time) such as Psylocke and the White Queen.

Unfortunately, the continuous jumping of telepath's powers in the X-Verse is one of the most wide consistencies. That, added to the fact that there are now basically a million telepaths really limit their uniqueness. Once they were something to be feared. Now they're just common.

that was when i panned the whole Onslaught story...Onslaught, no matter WHAT he was should have been able to over power PHOENIX (especially if it had been Phoenix II). COSMIC BEING vs MUTANT GONE MAD? you do the math

But he did do it, I believe, in The Dark Phoenix Saga with Pheonix II. He calmed her, at least, temporarily. It would make sense on the Astral Plane that he'd be able to tame the host mind. Also, as with what Psylocke did to Jean during their fight in Inferno -- telepathically cut off the means for Jean to access that power. Which would fit nicely into my theory that Phoenix became just a facet of Jean's powers, rather than the embodiment of .. whatever it is this week.

but she was still JUST a telekinetic. NO match for Psylocke or Emma at the time in a telepathic fire fight which Psylocke prooved several times until they began DUMBING psylocke down to make Jean somehow seem more competent and capable a telepath which she had NEVER been before (even before becoming Phoenix in 1976)

Agreed. Psylocke was always the more offensive version of a telepath whereas Jean was always the more reserved type.

that horrible, misbegotten ABORTION of a storyline was a joke from start to finish...let alone the fact that Phoenix IV (Jean herself) had been so easily killed by Magneto and that laid the foundation for this ridiculous story...since a "fractured and insane Phoenix" needed a host. the whole idea that she NEEDED "Scott's eye blasts" to fuel her? give me a break Phoenix II (and III) never needed ANYTHING that anyone on Earth could provide. she ATE STARS for christ sake.

Another continuity glitch. Magneto -- or whatever the hell that thing was -- should have never been able to kill Phoenix so easily. But I digress. That storyline was simply horrible and the fact they got Greg "Pornographer" Land to pencil the thing just made it worse. It was so obvious Marvel just wanted a cash cow.

because Jean Grey is tacky and a JOKE. SHe's given credit for things that OTHER people did years ago when she was still "Dead"...and she was the WEAKEST incarnation of "phoenix' (phoenix iv) ...so easily subdued and NEVER using her powers the way Phoenix II or III did.

The only problem I have is that she HAD so much potential. If they kept it to the fact that she was Phoenix II (pre-1986) she probably would have been a character I liked.

See, i felt that if they had left RACHEL as Phoenix III...it would've been alright. Stan Lee himself said that Rachel was supposed to be the daughter of Phoenix II. When Rachel gained the FULL power of the Phoenix (post Necrom storyline in excalibur) the Phoenix Force ITSELF endorsed Rachel and told her that the power would rest on her shoulders from there on. Rachel , as Phoenix III was an excellent "next generation" Phoenix to pick up where II left off but then SHE was shunted off to make way for pathetic plot gimmicks like Cable, X-man and every other "alternate child from the grey/summers clan" they could come up with

I believe that Phoenix could do fine if Rachel took the name and mantle back...and they left it with HER and had HER take to the stars and hang out with her cosmic peers , since Phoenix IS a cosmic force. SHe shouldnt be simply CONTAINED in the x-men's pocket of Marvel. also, having Phoenix involved in Marvel wide cross overs, duking it out with some cosmic foes (witness P II vs Firelord or P III vs Beyonder) could help.

If they don't want to do that...then yes, take Phoenix AWAY for a good long way..dont let JEAN or ANYONE ELSE have her (and please lets not revisit that damn "white hot room") and bring her back as a bitchy cosmic being.

I think it's too late to give Rachel Phoenix now. It just would seem contrived. I honestly think they should separate it and maybe, in a few years, give it back to her. But as it stands, it's just too prominant in the comics to really keep it there.

 

[sinosleep]

I don't think they should give it to ANYONE for a good LONG time. And when they do I don't want it to be Rachel, or anyone else associated with the Summers/Grey clan. Frankly I can't stand the lot of them at the moment.

I never liked X-Man as it was YET ANOTHER alternate time line/clone crap

Cable was only fun in the Cable and Deadpool book and that was mostly cause Deadpool is funny

Jean Grey should have STAYED dead as Phoenix II

I've never liked Cyclops until Astonishing X-Men started using him

Havok was cool but has reverted to "I'll never be Scott" mode

Rachel AGAIN with the damned alternate time line

and now the Phoenix is just entrenched in that whole mess. I mean why does the Phoenix NEED Jean Grey. What did it do for the MILLENIEA when there were no Greys?

 

[Karma]

ill agree with you on the fact that Jean Grey , as Phoenix II should have STAYED DEAD.

but for me, i felt Claremont did an affectionate, clever and functional NOD to Phoenix II with Rachel Summers. i have to remind myself as i rant...as the writing teams of comics change...anything can happen.

To be FAIR...Rachel was FIRST (and Claremont intended HER to be Phoenix II's daughter) .she came BEFORE Cable AND X-man AND in Cable's case...he's madelynne's child so he's not really an "alternate" anything. he was BORN in earth 616.

If you read Rachel during the 80's when she was full on "Phoenix III" and saw how she was really NECESSARY to the team's survival during one of their worst periods (sentinels, hellfire club, beyonder, freedom force etc) and then when they carried her on to Excalibur where she became simply majestic..i bet you'd like her more. BUT alot of readers TODAY dont know Rachel's relevance back then and why Claremont went so far as to bring her BACK all these years later (after Cable and X-man were finally swept away).

ultimately though....i think of combination of the ideas : A) having "Phoenix" going away for a good LONG while and THEN B) having her return to RACHEL would be the best thing simply because Rachel had a longer run than Phoenix II and got to show more of what "a Phoenix" could do for the team.

Phoenix II of course is legendary, Phoenix III was like an object lesson in how to apply the power over a long period of time.

 

[Rampage]

Here are the problems awith the whole thing as I saw it.

1) Jean Grey was too soft to start with. As with many female heroes, she should have been much more powerful than she was, especially as she developed.

2) The Phoenix Force in Dark Phoenix was too powerful for a regular comic. If you want her back to that, then it cannot be in a month to month comic unless it is a cosmic-based one. Dark Phoenix should have done like Michael Korvac, come and gone.

3) Rachel was a great balance of the power. As I recall her, she was REALLY powerful, but not omnipotent. She should have kept the power and been developed. That would have been cool. A cool twist also would have had her not have all of the force, but a portion of it so that Phoenix could live life through her, but be possibly called upon in times of greatest need. And I do mean GREATEST.

4) The entire Madelyne Pryor thing to me was rididculous. Absolutely ridiculous. She should have just been somebody altogether different and powerful.

5) My solution: Jean Grey wold have suffered and died in the Dark Phoenix saga. Rachel would have come from an alternate timeline where she survived somehow with her portion of the Phoenix Force and stayed. The rest of the Summers children would not exist in this timeline, at least not for more than an arc (except for MAYBE Cable).


That my 2 cents...

 

[sinosleep]

Well it's like I said on the MD, while I'm well versed in Phoenix II and IV I've read basically no Phoenix III. And while I'm not doubting you that as a character, she may have been good, the whole alternate time line thing just irritates the hell out of me. I'm also not too fond of her current incarnation either. I absolutely LOATHE 'subatomic telekinesis' as a concept and that's part of her power set now.

As for Cable, we're just nitpicking now. Sure Cable was BORN in 616, but he most certainly wasn't raised here and is back in 616 and at his current age from an alternate time line he still fits the category for me. Not to mention HE had a damned clone too in Stryfe.

 

[Arkaine]

When Jean Grey was replaced by Phoenix though, she wasn't too soft. Since she was originally supposedly Phoenix then I do believe that the character HAD potential.

I fully agree with Rampage when he says TPF is far too powerful for regular, monthly, comics.

New solution which I have got! The Dark Phoenix Saga was supposed to end another way which is now quite famous. The timeline in which Rachel was born, in fact, is the way that CC originally intended. Therefore, I would like that to happen if Jean/Phoenix comes back. For the Phoenix Force to be forceably removed from her (and Rachel) leaving Jean powerless. Along with this storyline maybe give Psylocke back her telepathy, and perhaps, PERHAPS, later on give Jean back her Telekinesis.

Then all would be well.

 

[Karma]

When Jean Grey was replaced by Phoenix though, she wasn't too soft. Since she was originally supposedly Phoenix then I do believe that the character HAD potential.

When Phoenix II was still considered to be Jean Grey..she had more than potential, she was a bad ass...and even Wolverine knew to "respect" her in a way that he gave FEW respect.

I fully agree with Rampage when he says TPF is far too powerful for regular, monthly, comics.

Phoenix/Dark Phoenix deserves a spot among the "cosmic" whos who of marvel. she's too often IGNORED when cosmic threats come into play and i think if Phoenix/Dark Phoenix gained a more cosmic persona (being the "queen bitch" of the posse' if you will) that would help. She IS a cosmic being after all.

New solution which I have got! The Dark Phoenix Saga was supposed to end another way which is now quite famous. The timeline in which Rachel was born, in fact, is the way that CC originally intended.

i have an actual copy of the alternate ending its called: "Phoenix: The Untold story" and in the back of the book it features "The Dark Phoenix tapes" which is the transcripted interview of Christ Claremont and the writing team responsible for the Dark Phoenix Saga. He clearly states that he DIDNT want Phoenix II to die and that he was pressured to have her face "Consequence" for being a "five billion mass murderer" ....and that his ending was not enough.

this timeline was even FURTHER explored (very well might i add) in the "What if" issues: "What If Phoenix had not died" and "What if Phoenix rose again" . These were the basic ideas that Chris had intended and you see that Rachel was in fact the daughter of PHoenix II.

Therefore, I would like that to happen if Jean/Phoenix comes back. For the Phoenix Force to be forceably removed from her (and Rachel) leaving Jean powerless. Along with this storyline maybe give Psylocke back her telepathy, and perhaps, PERHAPS, later on give Jean back her Telekinesis.

PSYLOCKE is another story all together. Making her a telepath is not enough damage control for the hell she's been put through over the years. she's a prime example of stupid ass writers living out their perverted sexual fantasies on paper.

We know telekinetics can be cool...just like at Carrie or Prue Halliwell. if Jean was strictly a telekinetic, she would've been fine...of course this is assuming that there wouldnt come an INNUNDATION of telepaths and telekinetics as we've seen happen over the years.

once upon a time..the ONLY telepaths who were notable in Marvel's X universe were: Xavier, Psylocke, White Queen and there was always the "is she/isnt she" question with Jean. then came the 90's and then came MORRISON

 

[Arkaine]

My only problem with Phoenix becoming part of a cosmic posse is the fact that I never take those kinds of threats seriously. Galactus, for example, is a joke for the most part. I'd like Phoenix to be something bigger than that.

 

[Karma]

LOL Sebastian, you've just gained a WHOLE LOTTA "cool points" with me! do you know that Galactus is the toast of the town on "Marvel Directory"? they sing his praises as if HE is the "Creator" in Marvel.

in fact...cosmic beings (on Marvel Directory) are lauded and praised to the point of nausea and yet PHOENIX never gets her due there. If you looked SOLELY at Phoenix II and III (not to mention Phoenix III's conversation with the Phoenix force ITSELF in exaclibur) you'll see a power that is BEYOND anything Galacatus could hope to handle...and yet people tend to think of Phoenix in the limited spectrum of "Jean Grey".

 

[Arkaine]

The Phoenix Force is the sum of all things yet unborn. That makes its power infinite. Therefore, it has far more power than Galactus. In fact, I can't remember any being off the top of my head that rivals it due to power.

I think in the 616 Universe a fight between that and Mutant X's Goblyn Force, might have some potential.


EDIT: And I'm sorry, but Galactus is such a joke. I mean, you eat worlds and then choose to go around in a PURPLE outfit? Yeah. Someone has masculinity issues.

 

[Karma]

The Phoenix Force is the sum of all things yet unborn. That makes its power infinite. Therefore, it has far more power than Galactus. In fact, I can't remember any being off the top of my head that rivals it due to power.

not only THAT, but Marvel Universe Index for YEARS stated that Phoenix was only second to "the creator" in terms of power, which means she outclassed EVERYONE ELSE in MU.


but trust me honey, on Marvel Directory..you'll get every so called "authority" on marvel comics blustering on (to the point of visual exhaustion and nausea) about a "cosmic ladder/hiearchy" and how Phoenix doesnt compare to Galactus. ive been there long enough to know JUST how much of a MELTDOWN you'd cause with your points (i agree with you, but it'd be a HELL of a debate to watch unfold on MD)

I think in the 616 Universe a fight between that and Mutant X's Goblyn Force, might have some potential.

didnt the goblyn force OVER POWER the phoenix force in Mutant X during Madelynne's rampage? (yet another reason why Madelynne was always more bad ass than Jean ever could be)

EDIT: And I'm sorry, but Galactus is such a joke. I mean, you eat worlds and then choose to go around in a PURPLE outfit? Yeah. Someone has masculinity issues.

he kind of reminds me of an over accessorized TELETUBBY! :haha:

 

[Arkaine]

I believe that the Goblyn Force did, indeed, over-power the Phoenix Force but we don't know what, exactly, weakened the Phoenix Force (if anything). A fully fledged fight would be interesting where both powers are at their tip-top shape.

Did it ever explain what The Goblyn Force was? I always assumed it was like TPF for the demon dimensions but it's been a while since I read Mutant X.

 

[Karma]

I thought it was to Madelynne what Phoenix had been to Jean Grey (pre 1986 retcon).

honestly, i was so excited about the story as it progressed..and now i cant remember LOL!

 

[Arkaine]

It was probably the only thing I enjoyed from that Mutant X spin-off. I couldn't get over the art for the most part.

Y'know, when Polaris returned in her purple costume which looked suspiciously similar to Madelyne's in Mutant X-verse I really thought some of the X-Writers were going to do something with that.

REALLY should have known better.

 

[sinosleep]

Here's the thing with Galactus (DDD knows the whole thing WAY better then I do but I can kind of shorthand it), isn't Galactus PART of the Universe according to the Marvel cosmos? That's he's not simply an entity, he is as much as PART of the universe as Eternity, Death, and the Living Tribunal? If he is, then his power is NOT to be underestimated, regardless of how badly he has been written.

Also as for the whole purple outfit thing, the way I saw it explained is that Galactus is an entity that has NO true shape. Different races have seen him in COMPLETELY different forms then humans do. From the way I understood it since the mind can not fathom what Galactus truly looks like he takes the form of whatever it is that is in the minds of those that look at him.

Not to mention EVERY time Galactus has ever been defeated, he's been starving and not NEARLY at anything remotely resembling full power.

 

[Arkaine]

I believe Galactus is part of the triangle of him, Death and Eternity. That said, his being only stems from THIS universe and he is only needed for this Universe to survive. Phoenix, however, hails from a universe predating Galactus' native one. In essence, The Phoenix Force is much more powerful than Galactus.