Let's Talk Abortion . . .

well said Mat. i'm GLAD to see that at least ONE man has a grip on the situation. this is a WOMAN'S CHOICE.

and for the comment about "it being the man's baby too" just because of his sperm....how do you explain sperm banks? were HUNDREDS of men donate their sperm (often anonymously, after passing drug and health screenings) and will NEVER know if it has been used or not? MOST men who donate their sperm to these banks do it for the MONETARY gain anyway and are HARDLY interested in any kind of "follow up".

again, it sounds to me like some guys in this thread are trying to twist things around...and some how make this be about them when its NOT. this is about the possibility of WOMEN losing THEIR RIGHT TO CHOOSE!
 
Alright let me go back to square one on this. I believe in the need for abortions. Getting pregnant isn't black and white (close your eyes you'll find it is a million colours of grey).

I understand that it is ultimately the Womans choice I clearly stated 'her 9 months' in a previous post.

I have paid for the morning after pill on more than one occasion. I understand the implications of a one night stand and of unforseen mistakes and mishaps.

I would never go to a sperm bank. I have issues with it (like I wouldn't want my child going up for adoption) but would never judge a woman who would use the means or a man that provides it.

I'm am just looking at it from my Dad's point of view, had he never have said 'I'll support you whatever you decide' I might never have been born. And if my Mother had decided on abortion anyway I wonder how my Father would have taken it.

In the end I'm looking at it from the point of when your with someone and they fall pregnant (and it can happen despite contraception or even if your not trying for a baby). The Man wants the baby the woman doesn't. In my eyes it is as much the Man's baby as it is the Woman's. Yet the Woman has all the choice. I understand why (I'll contradict myself here, as I said shades of grey) - and it should be the case but as Man looking at it from my perspective it doesn't seem fair.

However I cannot physically or mentally fathom the 9 months and giving birth and all the emotions it involves. So from that point I cannot argue my view anymore and conceed that it should be the Womans choice. Even though somewhere deep inside me I feel it isn't fair from my Male I want to be a Dad (with a say in the matter) perspective. I wouldn't force that on who I was with I would simply go with her choice and support her whatever she decided because I can't fathom what it must be like for her therefore it must be her choice.
 
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M
Mat
You summed-up my feelings on the matter quite nicely.
Hey, just wanted to make it clear that I AM pro choice. However, I find the whole thing about a man being held responsible yet having no chice in the matter to be very hypocritical.

About the other things said, how about when women stop giving it up before marraige maybe men will stop asking for it? How about a woman is just as able to tell a man he's not getting any without a rubber as a man is able to say he doesn't want to use one.

I feel that both parties are EQUALY responsible, and as such I damn well better get a say ( a SAY I know at the end of the day the woman's going to make the choice) in whether or not an abortion takes place. I mean sure, I'm 21, and in my current situation I would not be opposed to my girlfriend getting one as right now I don't have the means to bring a child into this world. But say if I was 30 that's an entirely different story.
 
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See I would say that the Men are NOT held responsible...

And you do know that it is possible to become pregnant while using a condom...? And do you really believe men are going to stop asking for it just because girls don't "give it up"? There is pressure, and a lot of people are not strong enough to risk losing someone they love rather than have sex with them.

I also think you'll find that if the man is someone who would take care of the mother and/or child, that chances are that will be an option.
 
And I also know that the the chances of getting married while wearing a condom are pretty much nil. ABout me saying that men wouldn't ask, ok that was dumb. Men will always be eager to get to the bedroom, but to me that's besides the point. If a man is going to leave you becuase you won't give it he's not worth it any way. And I still feel that if people are weak enough to not be able to take the preassure then that's their own problem. I hold myself accountable for everything I do and I feel that everyone else shoudl do the same.

To say that as a society men aren't held responsible is crazy to me. I think it's clear they are. As Rampage posted, it seems the woman has all the choices and the man has the choice of being a "man" or being a bum.
 
No offense intended, but you are 21 - life is different when you're out of university. The way people behave in relationships is different.
 
And I understand that, but what I'm talking about is a society's perception of what is and what isn't "right" for a man to do. And you don't have to "experience" a society to know what it's about.

[edit] Actually pretty much everything I've said can be applied to any age. I'm kind of going off on a tangent here but basically I just think entirely too many people in America try to blame everyone and everything other then the person at fault for EVERYTHING that's wrong in this country. And I personally think that's just a crock of shit. Especially when it comes to sex. Pressure or no pressure, protected or unprotected, unless someone's being raped both parties are EQUALLY responsible. And I don't see how any of that is going to change from now to 30.
 
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Vilandra said:
I also think you'll find that if the man is someone who would take care of the mother and/or child, that chances are that will be an option.
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I think Vil's hit the nail on the head with this one.

If we are just talking about pregnancy during a long term relationship then I feel the Man's view should be taken into consideration. As Sinosleep said he should have a SAY - but ultimately the Woman's choice. If the woman doesn't consider the Man's feelings on the matter, he really shouldn't be having children with her anyway. (I feel this is the only time a Man should have a say in the matter).

If it is a pregnancy from a one night stand then that is a grey area. Ultimately it should be the Woman's choice. But still kinda shitty that she is given the choice of either abortion or having the Man responsible pay (financially) where as if she walked out on the child the same wouldn't be asked of her.

In that respect I felt Liz Hurley did it best with her child to that America Millionaire. He claimed it wasn't his, she proved him wrong (DNA testing) then fucked off with her child back to England with her dignity and respect and said that she wanted nothing from him even though she and her child are entitled to huge payouts.

Obviously things like being raped and so forth there is a need for abortion and can only be the Woman's choice. Harsh as this sounds if the Woman chooses to keep the child she cannot expect her partner to stick around though.
 
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sinosleep said:
To say that as a society men aren't held responsible is crazy to me. I think it's clear they are. As Rampage posted, it seems the woman has all the choices and the man has the choice of being a "man" or being a bum.
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i've heard TIME AND AGAIN: "well if she laid down with him, she should face the consequences"; " if she was grown enough to have sex, she is grown enough to take care of the baby" etc etc. men leave women ALL THE TIME BECAUSE they are pregnant...and no one blames them for it. if NOT for the pregnancy, the man would have stayed. if he leaves, then why SHOULD HE BE CONSIDERED when it comes to a woman making her choice?

providing sperm HARDLY matches the burden of having to carry a child 9 months inside you and endure all the physical, mental and hormornal changes...not to mention that its the DEFAULT that the maternal bond with the child will be stronger than the paternal bond.

Mothers have ALWAYS endured the greater burden and responsibility of child rearing....and now all of a sudden MEN want to start hollering about "what about my feelings?" when the issue of Women's Rights is in jeopardy?

if your going to point fingers....then you better point at the legions of men who sleep with women any and all kind of ways without ANY regard for "what if" and then when they find out you're pregnant, they disappear faster than an illusion in the desert. Men have ALWAYS enjoyed greater range of sexual liberation in this country than women have....if a MAN sleeps with many women...he's "got game", "he's a pimp", he's "sewing his oats and having fun"....if a WOMAN has a healthy sexual appetite, she's "loose", "fast", "a whore", " a tramp" etc. and when it comes to the subject of abortion its ALWAYS the excuse/charge of men that it's the WOMAN'S RESPONSIBILITY to "use protection"....WRONG..its BOTH your responsibility.
 
Spell I don't even know what to say.

men leave women ALL THE TIME BECAUSE they are pregnant...and no one blames them for it.
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Are you being serious right now? Granted men do leave, to say no one blames them for it is rediculous! All you ever hear about is "dead beat" dads, and all the horrible men who don't take resonsibility and everything else. Obviously if the man has no intention of staying then it makes sense for his feelings to not be considered, as he's not going to have any feelings on the situation other then getting out of there. I'm talking about someone in "good" relationship.

I will grant you the point of men having a lot more leway when it comes to sleeping around, but all I'VE been saying this entire time is that it's BOTH people's responsibility. I was defending men becuase all I'd been reading is about men putting pressure on women, and men not using condoms, and men this and men that. When at the end of the day the WOMAN is one that let the man not use a condom in the first place. The woman is the one who caved to the pressure. I've never said it's entirely the woman's fault. I'm just saying there is an equal amount of responsibility,
 
I agree with a woman's choice, but I also can see the argument going here. The problem that I have with abortion on demand advocates is not that I disagree, its that when one fails to see both sides of the argument, the argument is weakened. I know a man who was told by his girlfriend that he could either marry her or she would abort their child. He loves children, so he married her and supports her. But the reason they got married at all is that it tore him apart to think that she would terminate the pregnancy of his child. Now, does anyone think that is fair? I don't. In my own situation, my wife and me were not married at the time. I swallowed hard and said to her, "I support whatever decision you make". She decided to keep my son and we are a happy family. A few months later, we were talking and she said to me, "I know for a fact that if I had aborted your child that we would not be together." The thought stunned me but she was correct. I was 28 years old, ready to be a father. If she had unilaterally taken that opportunity from me, I could have never forgiven her.
So understand, I fully support choice for women. But I'll be damned if I'll sit here and act as if the woman's viewpoint is the only one. I have about twenty male first, second, and third cousins. In all those cases, NOT ONE CHILD is without his/her father. So the men I know take care of their responsiblity. Not all men don't, but understand that men do not have a monopoly on irresponsibility.
 
sinosleep said:
Spell I don't even know what to say.



Are you being serious right now? Granted men do leave, to say no one blames them for it is rediculous! All you ever hear about is "dead beat" dads, and all the horrible men who don't take resonsibility and everything else. Obviously if the man has no intention of staying then it makes sense for his feelings to not be considered, as he's not going to have any feelings on the situation other then getting out of there. I'm talking about someone in "good" relationship.

I will grant you the point of men having a lot more leway when it comes to sleeping around, but all I'VE been saying this entire time is that it's BOTH people's responsibility. I was defending men becuase all I'd been reading is about men putting pressure on women, and men not using condoms, and men this and men that. When at the end of the day the WOMAN is one that let the man not use a condom in the first place. The woman is the one who caved to the pressure. I've never said it's entirely the woman's fault. I'm just saying there is an equal amount of responsibility,
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Can we get off this "condom" line of reasoning as it really doesn't have any bearing on this topic.

:)
 
I think unprotected sex has a lot of bearing in a discussion about abortion. Sorry about my constant edits but it's a bad habbit of mine. I tend to post then remember something I wanted to add after the fact. Any way, the only reason I brought it up again was because spell brought this up

if your going to point fingers....then you better point at the legions of men who sleep with women any and all kind of ways without ANY regard for "what if" and then when they find out you're pregnant, they disappear faster than an illusion in the desert.
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Why? Just because you use protection doesn't mean that you aren't going to get pregnant. And seriosuly, does anyone actually have unprotected sex anymore?
 
Why because if used properly you have about like a 5% chance of getting pregnant, if that. As for unprotected sex, there are more cases of std's reported EVERY year, there's a ton of unprotected sex being practiced.
 
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Becuase it was brought up. I edited the quote after you replied so you may have missed it but Spellbinder brought up men being irresponsible, and so have other people. I countered that argument with the fact that women are EQUALLY irresponsible and used condoms as an example.
 
All I'm touching on is the issue that if a Woman got Pregnant unexpectedly with someone she was in a relationship with should she consider his feelings on the matter because ultimately her decision affects the relationship and so does his reaction too that decision. In my mind yes she should consider his feelings and let him have a say that may influence her decision. - I just want to know what other Woman feel on this?

Outside of that of course it is the Womans choice as to whether she should have a baby or not. In all cases it should be up too the Woman to decide.

There will always be unfair cases where the Man has to pay for a child he didn't want and the Woman has decided to keep the baby and force him to pay - he may be rich or she may want to trap him (I have a friend who was more or less born because his Mum wanted to stay in the country [forcing his Dad to Marry her then went for a quick Divorce] and she hasn't hidden that fact). There are also cases where Men have left Women pregnant vanishing with no form of support - I have Friends who have never known their Fathers. These things can be argued all day with no prevail.

Edit:- I just read all this talk of Condoms, Unprotected Sex and abotions. I know the majority of my friends have had unprotected sex. And if they are in relationships I find (and this isn't right) Women take the responsibilty of contraception because they naturally worry the most about falling pregnant - In that respect the deserve the choice. Usually this contraception is the Pill with most of my male friends prefering it to condoms (for obvious reasons) but this offers nothing in the way of protection - considering the liberal attitude to sex these days and rising number of sexual partners everyone is having early on in life it would explain the increase in STI's. The excuses I hear for the use of the pill is that it is cheaper (I think it is free over here) and Guys don't like wearing condoms as the stopping and putting it on spoils the mood...

All forms of temporary contraception do not completely protect from pregnancy or catching STI's.

All in all I don't think the use or advocation of protection should hold any bearing on abortions and choice unless a Woman was using abortions as a form of contraception... which, would be clearly stupid.
 
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