Holocaust questions

[Karma]

Before i express my question that I hope will spark discussion, let me begin by saying I'm NOT trying to hurt or offend anyone with this. REMEMBER this has ALWAYS been a board for ADULTS where we can discuss topics even those that are far out /taboo.

That being said I had something on my mind after reading an article written by someone on the collegiate level. the article was about the holocaust.

I'm NOT one of those ridiculous "holocaust" deniers. how can you deny that??(or any other very real atrocity involving mass murder INCLUDING that which happened to the Native Americans or those victims of the slave trade) But this article I read touched on things I've heard before here and there about the growing perception that the Holocaust or rather the remembering of it has become an INDUSTRY.

One thing that I HAVE questioned is the appropriateness of a holocaust museum here in AMERICA. Not because I dont think its something that shouldnt be discussed but it didnt happen here. it happened in Germany, Poland, parts of Russia etc. in fact, it appears that America (the general populace) was largely UNAWARE of just what was going on and how horrible it was until it was all but too late and of course that's when our military got involved in THAT aspect of WWII.

I've also read things about how alleged descendants of OR those claiming to be actual survivors of the holocaust themselves are now sending american attorney's overseas to try to sue their way into any and every type of financial compensation from the governments of the countries where these things happened BUT some of these alleged descendants/survivors turn out to be FRAUDS and were never there, nor were they related to anyone who died there.

That's kind of shitty to me that someone would do that.

So overall this article talks about how the holocaust has come to be the most recognized/remembered event of human atrocity in these modern times while other very real, very deadly events similar have become minor entries or even glossed over by some historical accounts. Some countries are declaring "holocaust day" as a sort of holiday while forgetting that they have their own moments of horror in history that they should be reflecting on as well.

AND of course you have the constant assertions by certain individuals that american jews "control all the media/entertainment industry", "are as racist as they come and use the holocaust as their pass card", "use the holocaust to play the victim role" etc.

What do YOU think about all of this? I realize that for some people the mere mention of this is deemed inappropriate but i feel like a) we're adults, we should be able to handle talking about this and b) how "appropriate" is it to act like something didnt happen or not ever speak on it? part of growing and hopefully making sure things like that DONT happen again is to speak on it and see it for what it really is.

the other part of the question is: do you think it can happen again...or happen HERE in America (or where you live). genocides STILL happen but none seems to have the same weight attached to it as the holocaust. some that might be more easily remembered POST WWII would be the massacre in Rwanda or Sadam Hussein massacaring the Khurds (sp?) in the early 1980s. and of course, though this PREDATES WWII, I dont know how anyone who has any awareness of REAL american history can forget what happened to the natives of this land as Europeans colonized THIS country.

 

[Persephone]

I have personally been to the Holocaust museum in Washington DC and it was probably one of the more intense experiences in my life. I literally had a panic attack throughout the entire 4 story museum. They literally gave you a "passport" with a real life individual who had been through the Holocaust. As you went through the museum you were given more information about who you were supposed to be, and finally at the end, you found out whether you lived or died. They packed up into the elevator like sardines to take us to the main level of the museum as a way to simulate how many people were stuffed in the train carts when transporting them to the concentration camps. They had an entire room filled from floor to ceiling with the shoes of those who were cremated and it smelled horrible. They had pictures, videos, surgical instruments...everything that was either documented or used back then. It was horrible. But it was very eye opening, even at age 13, seeing what human beings were capable of and are STILL capable of today.

Though the Holocaust didn't happen on American soil, it's still very apart of our history as a human race. We were apart of a world war and were vital in stopping the Holocaust, which in in itself is justification enough in my eyes to have museums up about it in America. It lead to the bombing of Pearl Harbor, the bombing of Hiroshima, and NATO. I think it's very clear that though we weren't in the center of the Holocaust, we certainly had a part in it and it had a cause and effect to our country.

Not only that, but museums are the very essence of learning about history. Sure you can pick up a history book and read about what happened. Schools can teach you until their blue in the face about every single detail of what happened. But to literally go and see it with your own eyes is an entirely different experience. That goes for anything--art museums, musical/television museums, different historical landmarks, ect.

So yes, I do think that museums should be open over here. It gives Americans who wouldn't be able to go overseas to their museums to view a very important piece in world and American history. As for if this could happen here in America? I really doubt that. Our criminal justice system is pretty strict and on top of terroristic activities, especially after 9/11.

So that was my long winded response lol.

 

[Rampage]

I do not begrudge the Holocaust museum or the fact that Jews are making damned sure it is not forgotten. Hooray for them.

I am irritated that in the US we EMBRACE the remembrance of that while we gloss over the consequences of the African slave trade.

The African Slave Trade just to the US resulted in the deaths of between 7 and 25 TIMES as many people as the Holocaust. In addition, an entire people lost their culture, language and economic productivity and had their own work co-opted for the benefit of others for nearly 3 centuries (including Jim Crow).

I am not trying to belittle the Holocaust; it was HORRIBLE. But in this country we need to look at all of these tragedies and try to learn from them.

 

[Karma]

I have personally been to the Holocaust museum in Washington DC and it was probably one of the more intense experiences in my life. I literally had a panic attack throughout the entire 4 story museum. They literally gave you a "passport" with a real life individual who had been through the Holocaust. As you went through the museum you were given more information about who you were supposed to be, and finally at the end, you found out whether you lived or died. They packed up into the elevator like sardines to take us to the main level of the museum as a way to simulate how many people were stuffed in the train carts when transporting them to the concentration camps. They had an entire room filled from floor to ceiling with the shoes of those who were cremated and it smelled horrible. They had pictures, videos, surgical instruments...everything that was either documented or used back then. It was horrible. But it was very eye opening, even at age 13, seeing what human beings were capable of and are STILL capable of today.

thanks for sharing that! i can admit that I've not had the opportunity to visit the Holocaust Museum YET. It's something I want to do though to see for myself. That sounds like a truly moving experience and I'm sure those guides, the holocaust survivors, have been verified so they're the real deal.

Again, I don't question/deny the Holocaust occurred (and i think people who do are just effin morons) but after reading this article/blog it did make me think about some other things I had heard or even wondered about myself as far as how the rememberance of it has become a sort of "industry".

Though the Holocaust didn't happen on American soil, it's still very apart of our history as a human race. We were apart of a world war and were vital in stopping the Holocaust, which in in itself is justification enough in my eyes to have museums up about it in America. It lead to the bombing of Pearl Harbor, the bombing of Hiroshima, and NATO. I think it's very clear that though we weren't in the center of the Holocaust, we certainly had a part in it and it had a cause and effect to our country.

It wasnt until i got to college and studied history, or as i like to call it UNEDITED history, that i read and realized that apparently America wasnt as instrument in STOPPING the Holocaust itself as we were in rescuing the survivors and some of those who avoided being shot, baked, gassed etc wound up dying of exhaustion or illness just DAYS before they were liberated. overall though, you're right, America's involvement in WW2 was definately significant. It changed our country and definately changed the direction and outcome of the war itself.

Not only that, but museums are the very essence of learning about history. Sure you can pick up a history book and read about what happened. Schools can teach you until their blue in the face about every single detail of what happened. But to literally go and see it with your own eyes is an entirely different experience. That goes for anything--art museums, musical/television museums, different historical landmarks, ect.

you'd have to be carefull which book you pick up or consider what level of school you're in when being taught history though lol. elementary thru highschool? forget it. some schools at those levels still teach the very FALSE idea that "Christopher Colombus discovered America" :tomato: but taking history courses in college can be a truly eye opening, life changing experience or even searching around on the internet, though again you have to be carefull of what you read because some "articles" are full of slant and bias etc.

I agree that museums are an excellent source of knowledge and learning.

So yes, I do think that museums should be open over here. It gives Americans who wouldn't be able to go overseas to their museums to view a very important piece in world and American history. As for if this could happen here in America? I really doubt that. Our criminal justice system is pretty strict and on top of terroristic activities, especially after 9/11. So that was my long winded response lol.

We should be able to take comfort in that shouldnt we? I used to rest in that too. but NOW? i just dont know. not to get TOO off course, but for me, things like "The Tea Party" offend me to my spirit and deeply concern me and we have many groups here (KKK, Aryan Nation, Church of Humanity etc) that worship Hitler as a martyr and would love to see his "vision" come to pass in America. Racism/Bigotry are alive and well, and the reason Hitler was able to do what he did was because he tapped into the right network of people who felt as he did in a time when Germany was at a low point economically. America is in a bad state right now economically and people are very upset. SOME have legitamate reasons, but others like the Tea Party might as well be branded what they are....domestic terrorists and I fear that one day they or some other group like them will gain the traction they need to try to bring about something like that.

Our justice system isnt as fair and balanced as we'd like to think, especially in this post 9/11 world.

 

[Karma]

I do not begrudge the Holocaust museum or the fact that Jews are making damned sure it is not forgotten. Hooray for them.

I am irritated that in the US we EMBRACE the remembrance of that while we gloss over the consequences of the African slave trade.

The African Slave Trade just to the US resulted in the deaths of between 7 and 25 TIMES as many people as the Holocaust. In addition, an entire people lost their culture, language and economic productivity and had their own work co-opted for the benefit of others for nearly 3 centuries (including Jim Crow).

I am not trying to belittle the Holocaust; it was HORRIBLE. But in this country we need to look at all of these tragedies and try to learn from them.

this reminds me of a very UNPOPULAR statment I made a few years ago regarding people protesting apartheid in south africa here in america. some people really touted their efforts as if to suggest they were on a higher level of thinking and that they were "globally conscious" or whatever. MY response to many of these people (class mates etc) was "that's well and good, but we have racism, institutionalized racism and sexism going on right HERE in america. where's all this fervor for our OWN social problems?"

and people would get silent. to this day i can NEVER get an answer on that. i LOUDLY condemn racism and homophobia, so again dont think that I was approving of apartheid BUT i feel we need to focus on what's going on HERE before we start trying to save everyone else around the world.

what i'd like you (or anyone else) to answer for me is WHY do you think the holocaust has become the most recognized/spoken of act of human atrocity in modern history while other things like the slave trade, the massacre of the native americans by the europeans etc. have become less recognized, glossed over or even revised to be less severe than they were? do people these days know/remember "the burning times" when 600,000 or more women were tortured, killed and/or burned alive all in the name of "rooting out witchcraft"?

Evil is evil and we really don't need to "compare" when there are PLENTY of examples throughout human history. even the BIBLE tells stories of mass murder and massacre in the old testament when the romans wiped out entire towns as they spread out on their journey. Why does ONE horrible event seem to get more attention than so many others? one could argue: "where are the museums to remember/honor the native americans who died at the hands of OUR "forefathers", where are the monuments for the scores of women who were brutalized and killed for no VALID reason?" It's surprising to me that Nashville's main public library has an entire floor (in this massive building) with a beautifull, interactive memorial/exhibit to the civil rights movement but again, one could ask where are the museums that show the REAL history of the slave trade?

Its like what Sam was saying about how not everyone would have the ability to go overseas to see the remaining concentration camps or monuments etc ...likewise people might not have the ability to travel to Africa to see the tunnels that were used to herd the slaves to the ships for the slave trade like Anderson Cooper and President Obama visited last year. I HAVE questioned how appropriate it is to have a holocaust museum on american soil but I do think if MORE things like that were in place for OTHER dark moments in our own history, it would seem less "out of place" to me. (just my opinion of course)

back to the idea or opinion that some may be turning memory of the holocaust into an industry of sorts, what REALLY bothers me is how people try to use things like the holocaust or hitler to try to bolster/justify their arguments. you see this primarily with the Tea Party and I feel like if these people had ANY idea of just how hellish that situation was...they would NOT try to use that in their ultimately petty and misguided arguments.

again, what do you all think?

 

[Persephone]

WHY do you think the holocaust has become the most recognized/spoken of act of human atrocity in modern history while other things like the slave trade, the massacre of the native americans by the europeans etc. have become less recognized, glossed over or even revised to be less severe than they were? do people these days know/remember "the burning times" when 600,000 or more women were tortured, killed and/or burned alive all in the name of "rooting out witchcraft"?

I think it's because what Hitler did started a world war. It was not a solitary event that involved one country, it involved dozens of countries because of one man. Now i'm not saying that what happened to the Native Americans, the people back during the Salem witch trials, or even what is happening now in Africa should be marginalized in any way, what I am saying is that Hitler was the face and the voice behind the Holocaust. He put everything into motion, including WWII. I think people react more and pay attention more to situations that involved an individual in the forefront of the problem as opposed to groups of people. Look at Osama Bin Laden. He became the face of the terror after the 9/11 attacks. People thought if we killed him, the terrorist would stop. Obviously that's not the case, there's always going to be hatred in the world, just like there are always going to be skin heads or white supremacist groups who still support Hitler. But when people can focus on one individual, it becomes even more "news worthy". Hitler created a massive genocide that lead to the second world war, THAT is why people continue to talk about it, reference it, build museums about it, ect. One man put it into motion, not a radical group or government.

So while I agree that other massacres against humanity haven't had the attention given to them in history books or in schools that they deserve, I can understand why Hitler and the Holocaust gets the attention it deserves. Hitler was a disgusting, despicable excuse for a human being that caused the deaths of millions.

 

[Dark Lady]

I think it's because what Hitler did started a world war. It was not a solitary event that involved one country, it involved dozens of countries because of one man. Now i'm not saying that what happened to the Native Americans, the people back during the Salem witch trials, or even what is happening now in Africa should be marginalized in any way, what I am saying is that Hitler was the face and the voice behind the Holocaust. He put everything into motion, including WWII. I think people react more and pay attention more to situations that involved an individual in the forefront of the problem as opposed to groups of people. Look at Osama Bin Laden. He became the face of the terror after the 9/11 attacks. People thought if we killed him, the terrorist would stop. Obviously that's not the case, there's always going to be hatred in the world, just like there are always going to be skin heads or white supremacist groups who still support Hitler. But when people can focus on one individual, it becomes even more "news worthy". Hitler created a massive genocide that lead to the second world war, THAT is why people continue to talk about it, reference it, build museums about it, ect. One man put it into motion, not a radical group or government.

So while I agree that other massacres against humanity haven't had the attention given to them in history books or in schools that they deserve, I can understand why Hitler and the Holocaust gets the attention it deserves. Hitler was a disgusting, despicable excuse for a human being that caused the deaths of millions.

Agreed. What Hitler did was just so cruel and shocking. And the Holocaust gets alot of attention because of that and there are indeed still survivors from it that are alive today sharing their stories about being in the concentration camps.

Now I'm NOT saying that other bad things like the Salem Witch Trials and slavery aren't bad and they shouldn't get alot of attention because I think they deserve attention and they're very bad too, but like Pam said, the whole world got involved in this and it wasn't like the other things where Americans dealt with their country's issues on their own. Therefore, the whole world remembers it because the whole world was involved.

And I think it's good that the Holocaust gets alot of attention, because the deaths deserve to be honored as well as the survivors.

 

[Rampage]

I agree to a point.

I think that another issue is that in Hitler's instance, people feel comfortable assigning all the blame to HIM so they can sleep at night.

If people in this country paid the same attention to slavery, Jim Crow and its implications that has been paid to the Holocaust, there would be a LOT less sleeping. Because the blame is not so easily assigned to one person. The PEOPLE of the US held other people that they stole from somewhere else as chattel property for 300 years and benefited from brutally utilizing their toil to build the mightiest economic and military power the world has ever known. Period.

For example, how can one feel completely fine with Holocaust reparations yet not feel even a bit that descendants of slaves may also be entitled to payment for the work of their forefathers which went uncompensated? Personally, I am fine with people getting repaid for the Holocaust and I am not holding my breath worrying about slavery reparations, but I can certainly understand the point of people who are concerned about such things.

 

[Karma]

Sam & DL have a good point about how Hitler "stands out" due to what he pulled off. Here you have a small statured, frail, sickly, twisted little man who was plagued with (among other things) extreme flatulence and lived on the FRINGE of austrian society and yet he rose up to become this creature of such calculated, driven evil. I also find it odd and ironic that this "man" tried to describe the ideal characteristics of someone from the "master race" [white male, 6 ft, athletic, blonde hair, blue eyes] and yet he fit NONE of that description.

The thing about him, what he set in motion and how he was able to pull it off that is REALLY unnerving to me is that he was able to gain traction with his monstrous ideas because he appealed to the germans when they were at a very low social and economic point in their country. massive unemployment, poverty etc. he offered them "solutions" and included the idea that dealing with "the jewish question" would help solve theier problems. The germans bought into this stuff and put this man into power. He had already been establishing his network of lawyers, doctors, political officials, enforcers etc now he had the authority to do what he wanted to do. It seems like people today REALLY think that scenario couldnt happen again. Look at what's going on in America right now? we're in a terrible economic crunch, unemployment, etc. People are angry...there's been a SPIKE in the formation of militia groups, increased activity of known hate groups and people are looking to groups like the TEA PARTY to rescue them. Whose to say the "right" man couldnt do what Hitler did (in terms of setting the stage) here in america? there are MANY people who would love to see slavery return or see gay people exterminated (as they were among the targets of the nazis and death camps as well) and history even back to the bible (if you believe in it) shows example after example of mass murder , brutality, genocide that someone/group of people felt they were justified in committing. I'm not paranoid, but I personally don't think I should be naive enough to think that it couldnt happen again in my lifetime.

Garrick raises a good point because while Hitler was the one who brought this all about, it certainly didnt happen in a vacuum, nor did it happen without anyone being aware. the small towns, farms and villages that were near the death camps clearly knew something was going on considering that 1000's of bodies were being burned DAILY after they were shot, gassed or brutalized to death. you cant operate crematoria to the level they did and NOT have anyone living in a certain radius of it not realize something bizarre is going on...the smell alone would be detected for miles. not to mention the fact that 100's of 1000's of people were disappearing from cities across Germany and Poland. Poland had a population of 330,000 jews PRE holocaust. By the time the climax of the holocaust had passed, 300,000 of those jews were dead.

It started with Hitler, but he definately had individuals who were willing to do his bidding and see his nightmare come to pass. Even when the Allied forces were approaching the death camps in 1942 and Himmler (the commander who oversaw the operations of the death camps) had declared the "jewish question was solved", many of the guards at some of the lesser known camps continued to kill their captives. So it's a safe bet to assume that Hitler started that nightmare but there were more than a few who were willing to carry it on.

and, on Garrick's point as well...of the VERY few who managed to escape some of these camps and SURVIVE their escape attempt, one managed to get his eye witness account documented and it was filtered through underground ally channels, finally reaching london and eventually the united states. our gov't (at first) didnt reveal it to the public and didnt even ACT on it. the sad thing is that the allied forces didnt seem to BELIEVE the stories about the death camps until it was all but too late and THAT is a part of this whole thing many people don't know or dont acknowledge. I'm not saying the allied forces didnt help to stop MORE from happening, but it appears from all i've read and the allied forces knew earlier than they might want to let on what was REALLY going on.

Garrick said many people like to lay ALL the blame on hitler so they can sleep at night and he really has a good point w/ that. it's so "righteous", and so "in style" with some people to blame it ALL on him these days or to invoke his name when trying to describe "evil".

Don't get me wrong though, I would say the same thing Sam or DL say about him as far as being responsible for all of it. He was. He planned it, he gathered the people who he knew would follow him etc. he DESERVES to be blamed and like i said earlier- Hitler IS the scum of hell. He was a tiny, frail, sickly, twisted little man with a problem with flatulence and hardly the personification of the "perfect man" he claimed would herald the so called "master race". He would NOT have gotten as far as he did without the people who helped him, including the network of doctors who willingly (and gleefully) conducted horrendous experiments on people (particularly jews, their children and gays- who were also sought out and exterminated in these camps). and ultimately he was a COWARD because when he knew his reign of terror was over and the allies were coming for HIM, he ran, hid, barricaded himself and KILLED himself.

I personally think its awfull that he lives on even in infamy. Germany just debuted a "Htiler and the Germans" exhibition in a museum. I think THAT is in poor taste as well. I hate when people throw his name out there in an attempt to call someone they dont like/agree with "evil". Like how some of the republican senators compared obama to "hitler" because he was trying to enact healthcare reform. WTF!?

Meanwhile- I also agree w/ Garrick on the subject of how many are fine w/ holocaust reparations (with the exception of those who fraudulently claim to be direct survivors or descendants of those who died in that) but most of those same people would tell black people who think there sould be slavery reparations to "get over it"...really? that is really bad.