Healthcare in America

[Persephone]

I just got done watching Michael Moore's newest documentry, Sicko...and let me tell you, i'm absolutely floored. I was pretty aware of the fact that other nations had free healthcare, but I never really KNEW the extent of how 'free' everything was. I never really cared to think about it because I lived in America. But after seeing this movie, I have to say, i'm disgusted with how our Government allows the pharmaceutical companies basically RUN the healthcare companies in order to gain more money for them by denying people coverage.

CUBA, a communist country that the USA has basically been at odds with for YEARS, has better healthcare than us! It's FREE. Their medication for people cost less than one US dollar in most cases. They don't need medical cards or money when going into the hospital. They don't turn anyone away, regardless of their condition. They are a relatively poor country, yet they treat their citizens BETTER than our Government treats us. With all the freedoms and money our country has, how is it that WE can't get to where CUBA has gotten as a country healthcare wise? Canada, Britian, France..all these countries have a universal healthcare service for EVERYONE. How is it that the United States, one of the richest countries in the world, can't manage to do the same?

Money. It's all about money. Which is sickening. Britian and France's Governments pay the doctors to treat the people of their country. They still have million dollar homes, expensive cars, and flat screen TV's. So what's the problem? I just don't understand. I'm proud to be an American, don't get me wrong, but this movie REALLY opened my eyes up to what our country is lacking in.

I can honestly say, i'm petrified of getting sick. I was uninsured for nearly two and a half years until about a month ago, when I was finally able to get covered by BlueCross BlueShield, but after the stories I heard about people BEING covered, yet being denied healthcare because the company classified it as a 'preexisting condition' or 'experimental treatments' makes me scared to death of what I will have to pay if I ever get stuck in that situation. Just because you're covered by health insurance, doesn't mean you get a free pass...and it's frightening.

I can fully admit I was naive to a lot of this stuff. I thought once you were insured everything was dandy. That if you got hurt, you were covered. If you got cancer, you were okay. Not true. It's fucking ridiculous. All I can say is, if my ass gets sick, i'm heading to Cuba. LOL

Okay, i'm through with my rant. lol. Anyone have any opinions on healthcare in America?

 

[Karma]

alot of people would dismiss michael moore's movie because of his political stance but really, he's not telling folk anything that hasnt been known by some people for a long time.

i have a blue cross blue shield ppo and let me tell you...im not at all at ease with it. bcbs is one of the worst healthcare insurance entities in the country..want to know how i know? i work for the gov't in the office of commerce & insurance and im in the regulartory board for the insurance companies and BCBS gets THE MOST consumer complaints , followed by State Farm. now while some complaints are stupid (as are some consumers) a vast majority of them stem from what sam was talking about and thats only a symptom of the problem in our country's health care system. its a JOKE.

i dont feel any safer or secure with my ppo, in fact i feel like im WASTING damn near 100 bucks out of a paycheck for coverage that bcbs may or may not decide to honor OR the premium could go up at some point!

overseas , countries like switzerland also have free healthcare systems. everyone is covered, everyone is cared for and treated equally regardless of the condition or issue and they have a variety of programs to help people with all sorts of medical/drug situations.

insurance companies and the politicians in their pockets say its not feasible to just "give healthcare away" well there are plenty of examples around the world to dispute that. its one of those things that really shows how lacking America is in some ways and the fact that our image of being "the greatest country in the world" is starting to fade.

 

[Black Widow]

I watched this movie too... and let me tell you, it really blew me away. A lot of the things I believed about universal healthcare were COMPLETELY untrue.

Michael Moore did an incredible job of putting this film together and making it interesting, moving, and enlightening. I learned so much... I mean, I always knew health insurance [as it is now] is a joke. But what can you do? If you have it, you may be screwed but if you DONT have it, you KNOW you're totally fucked.

I was really pissed about the Gitmo part of the film. Those terrorists get better healthcare than they deserve.... even the soldier said she believed they got better healthcare than SHE did!

You're right Sam, the problem is money. Health insurance is BIG business and so are Drug companies. Christ, you can't watch a commercial break without a Viagra AND a Cialis ad anymore. They've got a pill for everything, talk to your doctor about it! It's completely ridiculous.

I believe universal healthcare CAN happen in America. The question is WILL it? If Hilary's elected.... I think we can be sure it will. Let's all hope we're that lucky. I wouldn't even mind taxes taking a hike if it meant I'd never have to choose which finger to have sewn back on because my insurance doesn't cover both and I can't afford to write a $72,000 check at the drop of a hat.

 

[Archon]

A. You have to be aware of Moore's starting point. He's as far left as you can get on the political spectrum. His "documentaries" are little more than propoganda for his ideas. There are a number of examples of him manipulating or ignoring data that runs contrary to his preconceived ideas. He isn't as interested in uncovering existing truth as he is in recreating truth in his own image.
B. There is no such thing a free health care. The cost has to be picked up somewhere. The solution: taxes. And get this, I read an article about universal health care and the economic burden it places on society. Basically, I wind up paying for someone elses bad habits: smoking, drinking too much, over eating, not exercising, having 15 kids, whatever. So the writer suggests that people who engage in less than health lifestyle choices have to pay a premium for insurance. Now I don't know about you, but I sure don't want some suit in Washington deciding which of my health related activities are worthy of punishement. The government hasn't exactly done a bang up of job of running things. I think we need less government, not more.

 

[Rampage]

The problem with your point Archon, is that you assume that you are not already paying that cost. You are. Underinsured, uninsured, write-offs, bankruptcies are all figured into the costs when you go to the doctor. I know, I worked in a doctor's office for the past 7 years before my current job.

The biggest advantage to universal healthcare is the cost certainty and cost limitation. Merck may screw you over, but when governments say "this is all we'll pay", they take it and are happy. We could enjoy savings of over 50% on medicines ALONE of we funneled purchasing through the government.

As for economic burden, we are the richest country on the planet. BY A LOT. And we are actually debating the cost of this when people all over the world in less affluent countries have it better? We afford what we want to afford, such as @ 3.7 BILLION a week for the war in Iraq with NO tax increase. (Figure according to Secretary of Defense Gates).

I can agree that Moore is divisive, but here he is right and unfortunately, too many people have been reading/watching the status quo Kool-Aid on this one. Universal healthcre encourages regular checkups and preventative care, whcih would also drive down costs. This is why many of the countries who have it are outsrtipping us in infant survival rates and expected life span. Helathier people are also more productive, able to spread the burden of this healthcare that we could fund with the war money anyway.

I would encourage anyone to REALLY take a good look at how the system could work before decrying paying for someone else, because we already do that. This way would simply prevent personal financial catastrophes and make our dollars go MUCH farther.

 

[Black Widow]

A. You have to be aware of Moore's starting point. He's as far left as you can get on the political spectrum. His "documentaries" are little more than propoganda for his ideas. There are a number of examples of him manipulating or ignoring data that runs contrary to his preconceived ideas. He isn't as interested in uncovering existing truth as he is in recreating truth in his own image.

Well first of all, lol, you're addressing a bunch of left wingers[so far as i know] so calling him a wicked liberal sinner isn't really going to taint our opinion.

Secondly, I can understand you bringing this up if this were a political type film or even a political issue... but it's not. The state of American healthcare affects everyone, white or black or hispanic, republican or democrat, rich or poor. Have you seen the film Sicko yet? You really should, even if you don't like Moore. It's a very important issue that, imo, EVERY American should be aware of.

B. There is no such thing a free health care. The cost has to be picked up somewhere. The solution: taxes. And get this, I read an article about universal health care and the economic burden it places on society.

Rampage had an excellent response. You DO already pay for healthcare and the way it's set up now, if your insurance doesn't cover it, you're gonna foot the bill, or you're SOL.

Basically, I wind up paying for someone elses bad habits: smoking, drinking too much, over eating, not exercising, having 15 kids, whatever. So the writer suggests that people who engage in less than health lifestyle choices have to pay a premium for insurance.

I actually don't have a problem with this. Taxes are based on income, the richer you are, the more taxes you pay, the poorer you are, the less you pay because you can afford to pay less. Therefore, the richer help pay pay for the poor, who can barely scrape by as it is.

Nothing personal on you, but you've just exhibited traditional American 'ME' thinking. Why should YOU have to pay for some broke ass slacker with a bunch of kids on welfare? Because poor kids get sick too. Should we just let them be ill and injured? What does that say about us as a society? We're all here, we all have to coexist and you'd think we'd be capable of taking care of each other. But no... we don't see why we have to pay for someone else's health problems. and American doctors don't want Universal healthcare because they won't be able to drive THREE ferraris, they'll only have one. and drug companies don't want Universal healthcare because the government would regulate costs and it wouldn't make the rich people richer and the poor people poorer.

Life, liberty, and the pursuit of MY happiness.... and fuck the other guy, I don't care what his problem is. Every man for himself, and you don't give a damn on the next man. It's EMBARRASSING. We ought to be ashamed of ourselves.

Now I don't know about you, but I sure don't want some suit in Washington deciding which of my health related activities are worthy of punishement. The government hasn't exactly done a bang up of job of running things. I think we need less government, not more.

Lol, I'm not sure where this is coming from... The government will punish you for being unhealthy? Take a lot at universal healthcare in other countries. The governments are BIG on preventative care... they promote checkups and healthy living styles because it means down the road, they'll catch a fatal illness in the early stages and it'll cost them less to fix it. Or your doctor will help you quit smoking and the drugs will cost some pocket change and your REWARD is feeling better day to day and not having lung cancer later.

Our government isn't perfect and there are plenty of things they're doing wrong.... but there are thing we get right as well and if the government can manage universal healthcare at Gitmo, I think we can give them a chance.

 

[Archon]

Well first of all, lol, you're addressing a bunch of left wingers[so far as i know] so calling him a wicked liberal sinner isn't really going to taint our opinion.

Nothing personal on you, but you've just exhibited traditional American 'ME' thinking. Why should YOU have to pay for some broke ass slacker with a bunch of kids on welfare? Because poor kids get sick too. Should we just let them be ill and injured? What does that say about us as a society? We're all here, we all have to coexist and you'd think we'd be capable of taking care of each other. But no... we don't see why we have to pay for someone else's health problems. and American doctors don't want Universal healthcare because they won't be able to drive THREE ferraris, they'll only have one. and drug companies don't want Universal healthcare because the government would regulate costs and it wouldn't make the rich people richer and the poor people poorer.

Life, liberty, and the pursuit of MY happiness.... and fuck the other guy, I don't care what his problem is. Every man for himself, and you don't give a damn on the next man. It's EMBARRASSING. We ought to be ashamed of ourselves.

I didn't call Moore a "wicked liberal sinner."I simply pointed out that he isn, in fact, biased and has a history

As far as the "ME" thinking, we don't live in a socialist or communist society (yet), so yeah, I don't believe each person should bear the responsibilty for his or her own well being. Make no mistake, it's "ME" thinking and self-reliance that built this country. You, on the other hand, have demonstrated a "rely on others" mentality in your thinking. We don't need to become dependant on others and we certainly don't need to become dependant on the goverenment. There are people who would love to create a dependant welfare state. I'm not one of those people.

Rich people should not have to pay for poor people. They shouldn't be taxed at a higher rate simply because they have more money. They studied hard, worked hard, and managed their finance well and now they have to foot the bill for other. That's not exactly fair either. On the subject of taxes, I'll go ahead and say that I'm in favor of abolishing income tax altogether and using a true sales tax. It's simpler and much more equatible.

I'm not wealthy. Financially, I would probably benefit from UHC, but it goes against my ideals. Also, I believe strongly that we should help those less fortunate than us. I give both time and money to a number of charities. In fact, a substantial portion of my income goes to charities and a substantial portion of my time goes to volunteer work. I just don't want the government telling me what I have to do with my money.

 

[Rampage]

Civilization and government is the ultimate expression of social welfare and common cause. If we are only concerned with Me, then have no government. Too many ME people want government to protect them form the have-nots but shudder to think that they might have assisted someone less fortunate than themselves.

As for the rich working hard and making the most of their opportunity , that is true for some. But wealth is not simply a measure of hard work. Especially in a country where many people worked the hardest of ALL for free to build what is here, only to be systematically shut out of any benefits for centuries. That is where ME thinking got us.

I will state the opposite opinion on taxes. I believe in a flat income tax rate for everyone with an exemption for the first 10 to 20 thousand in income and certain things such as childcare and college, and the abolishment of sales tax on items less than one thousand dollars with a tax rate of 7% or so for items above that for the portion above the one thousand dollars.

 

[Black Widow]

I didn't call Moore a "wicked liberal sinner."I simply pointed out that he isn, in fact, biased and has a history

I know you didn't dear, lol, that was just my offbeat humor at work.

As far as the "ME" thinking, we don't live in a socialist or communist society (yet), so yeah, I don't believe each person should bear the responsibilty for his or her own well being. Make no mistake, it's "ME" thinking and self-reliance that built this country. You, on the other hand, have demonstrated a "rely on others" mentality in your thinking. We don't need to become dependant on others and we certainly don't need to become dependant on the goverenment. There are people who would love to create a dependant welfare state. I'm not one of those people.

I don't see what you're saying here. The original thirteen colonies couldn't have separated from Britain if they didn't work together to fight the American Revolutionary war. Even more, they got help from France and Spain, without whom we'd probably still be saying 'Long Live the Queen'.

Also, I don't understand how you believe having Universal Healthcare would make us dependent on others. You get sick, you go to the hospital, you get the care you need. You don't have to go next door and wake up your neighbor and ask for their permission.... you're not depending on anyone to say yes, you're sick, you can go get help. Not like now, when you get sick, you go to the hospital, and you depend on your insurance company. My sister once got knocked out, went to the hospital, was cared for, and discharged. no big deal, just a concussion. The insurance company paid for the in hospital care. Great, right? Problem solved. Thank goodness we were insured. Not so fast. a few days later, my mother got a bill in the mail. It was over 1000 for the 15 min ambulance ride. The insurance company wouldn't pay for it because they hadn't approved it prior to the care being given. Oops... sorry guys. Next time I'll remember to call, during the chaos of them checking for brain damage and broken bones. Hell, while i'm at it, why don't I call before she falls off the horse? This way, we'll know if she's permitted to have an accident.

Rich people should not have to pay for poor people. They shouldn't be taxed at a higher rate simply because they have more money. They studied hard, worked hard, and managed their finance well and now they have to foot the bill for other. That's not exactly fair either.

So you're suggesting that poor people don't work hard? Not everyone can be a doctor or a lawyer or a CEO. We need garbage truck men and mechanics and Mcdonald's cooks too. This people can't afford to get sick. Who is going to help them? What's that, construction worker? You got in a car accident? You're bleeding from the head? Well, you'd better suck it up, because you can't afford to pay those hospital bills, and you're uninsured.

Also, I believe strongly that we should help those less fortunate than us.

Oh, so..... we agree?

On the subject of taxes, I'll go ahead and say that I'm in favor of abolishing income tax altogether and using a true sales tax. It's simpler and much more equatible.

Do you realize that in order to make up for income tax, sales tax would have to be something like 25 cents on the dollar?

Yeah, everyone would pay the same, but for rich people it would work out near the same. It's the poor that would suffer from that. As a consumer, rich people would be able to buy more things, or they would keep more of their money. Poor people would have to pay more for the essential things, and they'd watch more of their money disappear, because they have to pay more taxes than they're used to in order to make up for an 'equitable' tax system. State and federal taxes have to come from somewhere. The government needs money to run schools and pay for law enforcement, to go to war and fund the military, for waste management, for congress and the house of reps, and so that the president can eat and sleep in the white house. the CIA, the FBI, NASA and the FAA, all those things that the government does, WE PAY FOR. And if the rich aren't paying 35 cents on every dollar over 300,000 they make, then we've got to jack some tax up somewhere to compensate.

Also.... Rich people already pay for poor people. Everybody pays for the poor, the unemployed, the substance abusers, the disabled. We call it Welfare.

Would you rather take a more 'ME' oriented look at it? I'd GLADLY pay higher taxes if it meant that when I fall off a ladder or get hit by a drunk driver, I can go to the hospital and get care and never see a bill, and never worry that I'll come down with breast cancer and the insurance company will tell me that due to some loophole, I'm not covered.

I'm not wealthy. Financially, I would probably benefit from UHC, but it goes against my ideals. I give both time and money to a number of charities. In fact, a substantial portion of my income goes to charities and a substantial portion of my time goes to volunteer work. I just don't want the government telling me what I have to do with my money.

That's excellent. I only wish I myself could afford to be so philanthropic. Right now I've got to study hard and work hard to achieve my personal goals so that someday I'll be able to. I ALSO believe that if you CAN give, you should. But what if I can't? Does that make me a lesser person? I don't think so... I think we all do the best we can, and heaven help me if I, or one of my family members, get sick or injured...

 

[Archon]

Our opinions are diametrically opposed. I disagree with pretty much everything in your previous post, but it's apparent that we aren't going to find any common ground on this issue so I won't bother to comment. I will, however, comment on this...

That's excellent. I only wish I myself could afford to be so philanthropic. Right now I've got to study hard and work hard to achieve my personal goals so that someday I'll be able to. I ALSO believe that if you CAN give, you should. But what if I can't? Does that make me a lesser person? I don't think so... I think we all do the best we can, and heaven help me if I, or one of my family members, get sick or injured...

Of course it doesn't make you a lesser person. But there's lots you can do that don't cost anything. Help in soup kitchen or homeless shelter, collect old coats from your family and friends and take them to wherever homeless people hang out, visit a nursing home, whatever. By the way, I think nearly everyone can give if they really wanted to. Obviously I don't know your situation, so please don't think I necessarily mean you.

 

[Karma]

these are issues that should be readdressed (after all, with regards to taxes, MUCH has changed since the dawn of the original 13 colonies and the IRS at one time wasnt even a "federal entity" with the broad powers it now enjoys )

but when it comes to universal healthcare what is america really afraid of? i think SOME socialist methods could benefit this country...especially at a time where the "middle class" is well on its way to becoming "working poor". hell...are we even a democracy anymore? because under Bush we seem to have a facist republic type government more than anything else

the only thing that would REALLY change is that health insurance companies and pharmeceuticals would not be GORGING themselves on the hard earned dollars of the american people. EVERYONE would be entitled to medical care/health care...what is so BAD about that? "cost" only seems to be an issue for those who either don't understand or for those who stand to LOSE all the profits they've been raking in (the "industries" that regulate our health care)

its funny...we study in history (or what passes for "history" in the american public/private school system from elementary thru highschool- I HIGHLY recommend taking history courses in college...its a whole new, FAR MORE ACCURATE story at the college level) and we see periods were "progressives" and "muck rackers" helped to bring about sweeping changes...once upon a time there were no such things as unions, child labor laws or even "health benefits" on jobs...and yet these are things present day society now take for granted...and yet the idea of universal healthcare which is shown to work in MANY countries just as developed as ours across the globe draws such "controversy" like its signing a pact with satan himself or something LOL.

one fact should be clear...what's going on NOW aint working. people of all income levels work hard...and like Lexi said..everyone cant be a "white collar" type worker. some of us are somewhere in between white/blue and some are definately blue collar but regardless of what station you're at, you SHOULD be entitled to healthcare. people like ME who have insurance arent necessarily safer than those who DONT have it because trust me, ive reviewed cases involving women my age or older who have been diagnosed with cervical or breast cancer (for example) and were IMMEDIATELY DROPPED by their insurance carrier. no prior problems, nothing to indicate it was coming...and NO prexisting conditions at the time the policy was taken...what kind of shit is that? like i mentioned before, I have a bluecross blueshield ppo and SOME people say "oh you covered nicely" and i say "well yeah until they decide i'm not". and this is INSPITE of the $100 premium i pay out of every paycheck....and if i were to become a cancer victim since it does run in my family , do i REALLY want my fate and the care /treatment i receive to rest in the hands of some out of touch, pencil pushing , "administrator" prick who has no medical field experience and is only concerned about the bottom line?

the "health insurance industry" as it is NOW is out of control just as pharmaceuticals and "big oil" are...and who can we most likely thank for that? BUSH.

we've got to find a way to change things before it gets worse...before its too late for millions more people who are poor, working poor or whatever else.

 

[Rampage]

In addition, what is lost on many is that healthcare works great for the very poor and very rich. Universal healthcare would primarily be a lifeline to millions of lower wroking class to middles class people who would no longer have to worry about bankruptcy due to ctatstrophic illness.

What decided this for me was when my own mother was in the hospital being evaluated for placement on the heart transplant list about 7 years ago. Part of the team assigned to her was concerned only with FUNDRAISING, because you are not put on the list unless it can be ascertained that you can pay for treatment.

For my mother, payment was no issue. But a lady down the hall who had a good job and so-called good insurance was busy trying to come up with a $250,000 deposit. The reason? Her insurance dropped her and she needed to prove that she could raise the funds for the transplant and treatment before being placed on the list. Now that is fucked up. That day, after talking to her, i said that we have to do it better than we do it now.

 

[Archon]

Beyond the philosophical and even fiscal arguments is the fact that UHC isn't a constitutional right. It's not the government's responsibility to provide health care for everyone. It certainly isn't constitutional to require me to pay for someone else's health care. Somewhere along the way, we started believing that it's the government's job to fix all of our problems. It isn't. Take the following quote, for example:

its funny...we study in history (or what passes for "history" in the american public/private school system from elementary thru highschool- I HIGHLY recommend taking history courses in college...its a whole new, FAR MORE ACCURATE story at the college level)...

The public school system is a socialist institution and I think we would all agree that it's current state is somewhat less than ideal. Why does anyone think that another government run socialist institution would fare any better? More bureaucracy is not the answer.
This is neither here nor there, but I would disagree that history as presented at the collegiate level is more accurate. In fact, I found it to be more biased than the history I learned in public school. But that's an entirely different discussion.

 

[Archon]

Beyond the philosophical and even fiscal arguments is the fact that UHC isn't a constitutional right. It's not the government's responsibility to provide health care for everyone. It certainly isn't constitutional to require me to pay from some else's health care. Somehere along the way we picked up the belief that it's the government's job to fix all of our problems. It isn't. Take, for example, the following quote:

its funny...we study in history (or what passes for "history" in the american public/private school system from elementary thru highschool- I HIGHLY recommend taking history courses in college...its a whole new, FAR MORE ACCURATE story at the college level)...

The public school system is a socialist institution and I think we would all agree that it's current state is considerably less than ideal. Why would anyone expect another government run socialist institution to fare any better? More bureaucracy is not the answer.