Feminism

[DonDaddyD]

I'm going to post this before SpellBinder to point my finger down on what I believe and so that it is actually read, bacause obvisously she'll be the definitive voice in the matter.

Personally I think the ultimate goal for the feminist movement should be the empowerment of women regardless of what pursuit they choose in life.

 

[Arkaine]

I'm a guy but I still feel the need to say that Feminism, as a modern concept in most Western socieites is redundant. In truth, I feel that the idea of feminism in places where women recieve equal rights to men, has an actual negative impact on women as a whole. Coming from Merry Ol' Ireland I'll try to illustrate my point using the following example. In Ireland there's a law where women, for maternity leave, get far more off-time than fathers do for praternity leave. The reason for this is obvious as women themselves have babies in the physical sense of the word. That said, however, this law means that women are, in all fairness to women, more costly to employ as a gender which impacts negatively on all women. It basically means that it makes more economic sense for a man to be hired over a women, given that their credentials are similar, because a man is given less "freebies" (I loathe to use that word).

Now, here's the rub, women *aren't* baby factories. There are very successful women who will never ever take advantage of such "bonuses" that are given to women because they don't *want* chilfdren and never will. Yet these women, when interviewed for a job, will be classed as "a gender which may need this in the future" which is extremely unfair.

Thus! My solution is to have feminism up to the point of promoting equal rights as men, equal pay, equal everything but when it gets to that point, instead, promote "equalitism" -- that is to say give men and women the same amount of leave for maternity/praternity and so forth. Feminism, I think, (well certain branches, because remember there are *many* branches) promotes differences within the sexes which, IMHO, compounds on the already negative circumstances that women are in. If men and women are given equal rights.. equal holidays.. equal everything it'd go a far longer way in promoting women to choose what a man can choose and for people to recognise them as equal rather than "lawfully the same but different".

Just my two cents.

 

[Karma]

and of course a MAN would say something like this if it WERENT for WOMEN in "western society" standing up and DEMANDING the most basic rights which at one time we DIDNT have (voting , being recognized as EQUALS and NOT "second class citizens" etc) then where would we be now? Feminism HAS served a purpose in changing the view of women as a gender and showing that we CAN do whatever a man can do if that is what WE want to do. and again, its about our right to choose OUR OWN ROLE (be it home maker, career woman, athlete etc) and NOT require the approval of MEN. Feminism has allowed many women, who were once CONVINCED all they could be was merely a housewife, to step out and make a life OUTSIDE of that role. Laws have been shapped and RE SHAPPED because of feminism (equal pay act back in the 1970s) women have made STRIDES in sports to gain recognition as being just as capable and worth watching as MALE athletes (Billie Jean King; Florence G. Joyner; Serena/Venus Williams etc) and all of THIS is because of the ground breaking work of Feminism which PUSHED the idea that a woman could even BE INVOLVED in sports, law enforcement, military etc.

on the subject of women having children and a woman having a longer period of time for maternity leave makes PERFECT sense because WE are the ones who go through the PHYSICAL PROCESS. we cant just pop out a child and the go to work the next day. it doesnt work that way and ANY doctor will tell you that. further more, Maternity leave is HARDLY a cornerstone issue when it comes to feminism.

Feminism is an empowering mind set for a WOMAN...allowing her to rise up and make the most of her life in whatever role she chooses...WITHOUT feeling the need to "fall in line" with preset roles given by MAN. The concept works and continues to do so.

 

[ZorCrow]

feminism had has a negative affect on our society and culture, and is a force that must socially subside for their to be real equality for men and women.

1. Nature, ON AVERAGE women are not as strong as men. Men have strongerand are enabled to do more tasks than women. This is something feminism denies, and tries to compensate for at the risk of many standards that are necessary.

2. Society accomdates women's differences, their are parking spots for pregnant women, and allowances made for "feminine issues." These allowances are real, and the adjustments are necessary for women. Such as maternity leave, this is something that benefits the women and women pushed it, but true equality would be no maternity leave and just for the woman to use her sick leave for a few days and get back on her feet.

3. Title 9, title 9 has cut funding for male sports that people actually cared about and made some of them defunct to fund women's sports that dont' generate as much money nor interest. It is harmful to men.

4. The role of the family. Men are supposed to lead and be the head. Now you don't have men in the leadership role and you see reckless and misguided young men and women lead their lives astray and the lives of others every day. Men and women are different and provide a different tole in raising children. Children are better with loving male and female parents, this is something that has been scoffed at by women in the feminists movement as archaic, but as breathing is archiac and correct so is this notion.

5. Understand men. Feminists do not under stand men. Their is a reason POrn stars, prostitutes and strippers know so much about men. They know what we like in a sexual nature, and in a non sexual nature. Most of these women listen to men and are fun loving and cater to their desires, women in side of marriage should do this, it's not being archiac and piggish, it's being true. Men and women should provide for it's each other in relationships,
it's a part of our differences and what makes life right.

6. Women's equality does not mean female supremacy . . . women should have the same rights and choices that men are awarded in our society,
but they should not be awarded more in our society than men.

7. Lesbianism . . notice how many feminists are man hating lesbians? Calling sex with men rape ? Calling bras evil? Seriously their are some strange workings in feminism that are very homo erotic. I read a book on the subject in college and it was enlighting.

8. Women having sex like men . . so when women were virtious (except the three forms I mentioned, prostitute, porn star and stripper) the world was a better place now with reckless sex on both sides the social problems of unwanted pregnacy and children out of wedlock are affecting America and Europe.

Women need men to be MEN, I hear this all the time, women wondering why men are such babies in relationships? Because feminism's affects have demsaculated men, men need to take back our manhood and be the leaders, fathers and husbands society us to be.

 

[Karma]

Zorcrow...do you ever THINK before you post?

what the hell kind of ignorant, stereotypical, HALF ASSED nonsense are you posting here!?

You equate Feminism with LESBIANISM? well I am the FIRST example to proove you wrong as i am FAR from gay and have had equitable, enjoyable relationships with MEN. These men respected me and did not try to force me into ANY role and that was what allowed for us to get along. A Strong, independant woman who doesnt need to be LEAD by a MAN in anyway is not a detriment to our society. We have JUST as much to offer as any MAN does.

. You blame feminism for the break down in FAMILIES....COME AGAIN and try blaming MEN who ABANDON their families for affairs with OTHER women, or who simply dont want to be saddled with raising a child , or men who FORCE women to take their childen and FLEE from domestic violence and are you ALSO suggesting that a MOTHER cannot raise her CHILD as effectively as a father? many of our political power houses TODAY have credited their MOTHERS (coming from SINGLE PARENT HOMES no less) for making them the MEN AND WOMEN they are today. Feminism allowed women, who wanted to be MORE than housewives, to finally have the courage to reach out for something MORE in life...and NOT be made to feel they were WRONG for wanting to be more than "barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen".

 

[Sasha]

I have something to add to that.... strong women aren't the reason that there is a break down in the family structure. It's the individuals (man and/or woman) inability to manage and commit to a family. My grandfather is by far one of the most conservative and traditional people I know, but he encourages me to be a strong women. He wants me to go to college, make a good amount of money, and not have to rely on any man to live my life.

When my mom was 18 she got stuck in a marriage with a very dominant male who abused her and made her do things that he could've done himself. His whole routin was he came home and sat in his chair. It was my mom responsibility to have dinner ready for him, bring it to him, take his dirty plate away to clean, undress him and give him a bath. Eventually however she left him and met my father who is treated her like an equal and let her be herself. He encouraged her to become a nurse and work for herself. They've been together for almost 18 years an counting.

I don't want to be stuck in a passive position when I know I can make decisions for myself. That philosephy probably worked in the 50s, but now it irrelevant. The reason we want equal pay and equal treatment is, because of idiots who see us as a piece of meat instead of the beautiful, strong, and intelligent women we are.

 

[Foxfire]

3. Title 9, title 9 has cut funding for male sports that people actually cared about and made some of them defunct to fund women's sports that dont' generate as much money nor interest. It is harmful to men.

I don't recall ever having a man's sports cut for women's. If anything it was usually the music or art programs that were cut. And sometimes the sports team is cut because of low numbers. And if the male sports were cut it was because of the use of steroids that most men use, women don't.

5. Understand men. Feminists do not under stand men. Their is a reason POrn stars, prostitutes and strippers know so much about men. They know what we like in a sexual nature, and in a non sexual nature. Most of these women listen to men and are fun loving and cater to their desires, women in side of marriage should do this, it's not being archiac and piggish, it's being true. Men and women should provide for it's each other in relationships,
it's a part of our differences and what makes life right.

Why should women need/want to understand men when all they carry about are breasts and ass (especially strippers, porn stars, etc.). Men encourage women to be slutty, trashy, and trampy. Porn stars, strippers, etc. understand that if they want to get paid they will do whatever especially to satisfy a man. I bet none of them really care outside of their job. And most porn stars, strippers, etc. carry some sort of sexually transmitted disease. These are not the type of women to idolize.

7. Lesbianism . . notice how many feminists are man hating lesbians? Calling sex with men rape ? Calling bras evil? Seriously their are some strange workings in feminism that are very homo erotic. I read a book on the subject in college and it was enlighting.

Not every feminist is a lesbian. Most would assume that due to their dislike of men. I'm a lesbian but I do not detest men, but I'm also not a feminist. Its easily to assume, but, granted some feminists are lesbian.

8. Women having sex like men . . so when women were virtious (except the three forms I mentioned, prostitute, porn star and stripper) the world was a better place now with reckless sex on both sides the social problems of unwanted pregnacy and children out of wedlock are affecting America and Europe.

What about the men pressuring women for sex or sexual favors? You've yet to bring that valid point up. Women should be allowed to enjoy sex just as much as men. We have rights and freedom to do what we desire. But the second we enjoy sex we are looked down as "sluts" , "whores" , or some other negative name. What about the men who sleep with tons of women like the "thugs", "players", etc. And that's considered cool in some social circles. Why aren't they saving themselves? Because they can't, they don't have the control or power.

 

[Arkaine]

and of course a MAN would say something like this

A man who has studied feminist theory and happens to believe in equality of women rather than empowerment through separation.

and of course a MAN would say something like this if it WERENT for WOMEN in "western society" standing up and DEMANDING the most basic rights which at one time we DIDNT have (voting , being recognized as EQUALS and NOT "second class citizens" etc) then where would we be now? Feminism HAS served a purpose in changing the view of women as a gender and showing that we CAN do whatever a man can do if that is what WE want to do. and again, its about our right to choose OUR OWN ROLE (be it home maker, career woman, athlete etc) and NOT require the approval of MEN. Feminism has allowed many women, who were once CONVINCED all they could be was merely a housewife, to step out and make a life OUTSIDE of that role. Laws have been shapped and RE SHAPPED because of feminism (equal pay act back in the 1970s) women have made STRIDES in sports to gain recognition as being just as capable and worth watching as MALE athletes (Billie Jean King; Florence G. Joyner; Serena/Venus Williams etc) and all of THIS is because of the ground breaking work of Feminism which PUSHED the idea that a woman could even BE INVOLVED in sports, law enforcement, military etc.

And I agree. My argument wasn't that feminism didn't sculpt the a difference into the world, I am saying however that there comes a point where there needs to stop promoting of differences and start promoting of equality. If it doesn't do that then it'll just serve as a severing point and make women more of a "victim" role, enforcing already established cultural stereotypes.

on the subject of women having children and a woman having a longer period of time for maternity leave makes PERFECT sense because WE are the ones who go through the PHYSICAL PROCESS. we cant just pop out a child and the go to work the next day. it doesnt work that way and ANY doctor will tell you that. further more, Maternity leave is HARDLY a cornerstone issue when it comes to feminism.

I agree fully and constantly. HOWEVER the problem is that such a thing makes women less desirable than men in a workforce on a strictly economic standpoint which reflects badly on women who don't want to have children, no? That's why I said that they should have the SAME maternity leave as praternity .. as in upping praternity rather than downing maternity, so that women and men are viewed as having the same "problems" when they become employed.

Feminism is an empowering mind set for a WOMAN...allowing her to rise up and make the most of her life in whatever role she chooses...WITHOUT feeling the need to "fall in line" with preset roles given by MAN. The concept works and continues to do so.

The problem I feel is that in today's society the law states women and men are equals. Feminism, I believe, shouldn't be about *empowering* women but *equalizing* women in the view of modern culture. By changing the gender stereotypes, and the old myths, it'd go a long way in allowing women the mindset of choice to do as they so please.

Honestly, I've had fights with many a person over feminism and still believe it to be redundant in today's society. I'd be more of a Equalitist.

 

[DonDaddyD]

2. Society accomdates women's differences, their are parking spots for pregnant women, and allowances made for "feminine issues." These allowances are real, and the adjustments are necessary for women. Such as maternity leave, this is something that benefits the women and women pushed it, but true equality would be no maternity leave and just for the woman to use her sick leave for a few days and get back on her feet.

Oh if all countries could be as forward thinking as England.:whistle:

NO Zorcrow TRUE EQUALITY and a more HUMANE choice would be realising that Men have just as much right too their children as Women and thus give MEN the same amount of Maternity leave as Women. It also allows Fathers to better adjust to the changes within their family as well as allowing him to share the burden of the new bundle of joy.

In England some forward thinking companies give both Men and Women the option of having a full six months off each.

Thats all I want to comment on so far.

 

[Arkaine]

Oh if all countries could be as forward thinking as England.:whistle:

NO Zorcrow TRUE EQUALITY and a more HUMANE choice would be realising that Men have just as much right too their children as Women and thus give MEN the same amount of Maternity leave as Women. It also allows Fathers to better adjust to the changes within their family as well as allowing him to share the burden of the new bundle of joy.

In England some forward thinking companies give both Men and Women the option of having a full six months off each.

Thats all I want to comment on so far.

And this is my point about the maternity leave. I am NOT saying women don't deserve the time, nor should they not get it. I'm saying, however, the time off is an economic burden to an employer who will seek the best way to counter that cost which would be to hire a man instead. THEREFORE, if the same amount of time was given to a man, and he was ENCOURAGED to take it, it would dismiss the issue entirely.

 

[DonDaddyD]

And this is my point about the maternity leave. I am NOT saying women don't deserve the time, nor should they not get it. I'm saying, however, the time off is an economic burden to an employer who will seek the best way to counter that cost which would be to hire a man instead. THEREFORE, if the same amount of time was given to a man, and he was ENCOURAGED to take it, it would dismiss the issue entirely.

True, but in skilled jobs isn't it more costly to train someone new? Also you don't know how that person will turn out. It's easier to make do without the person for six months.

Plus it isn't in the intrest for a company NOT to show loyalty too its employees. I would leave a company if I saw it s not providing things like Maternity leave for Women and Men or hiring men over Women for that reason.

 

[Arkaine]

True, but in skilled jobs isn't it more costly to train someone new? Also you don't know how that person will turn out. It's easier to make do without the person for six months.

Plus it isn't in the intrest for a company NOT to show loyalty too its employees. I would leave a company if I saw it s not providing things like Maternity leave for Women and Men or hiring men over Women for that reason.

Sorry, I wasn't clear, I meant at the very initial hiring basis and how a man, even with slightly less qualifications, may be hired over a woman because he is seen as having less of a liability when it comes to things such as maternity leave.

 

[Rampage]

Whether we like it or not, Arrow is right in the workplace example. Women are routinely viewed as more expensive to a company because they take more days off for family (this includes maternity leave) and cost more in insurance (women take better care of themselves than men and take more medicines on average, this includes the pill).
In addition, the Title 9 example is also correct. The problem I have with Title 9 is that it puts non-revenue women's sports on the same playing field as revenue-producing men's sports. I would much rather have exceptions for ANY sport (like UNC men's basketball OR UConn women's basketball) that can make a profit. Far too many men's non-revenue sports (wresting has been hit especially hard) are sacrificed because for Title 9 schools have to value women's non-revenuer producing sports over similar men's sports. I think that would be more fair and go a much longer way to advance the cause of gender equity.

 

[Mat]

Fuck feminism. I'm going to open doors for women whether they like it or not.

Feminism means equality between the genders and I think that when possible, that's a good thing. The question is how far do you take this equality? Should all women in the armed services be expected to perform the same physically as the men when it comes to our tests? Why is it that if a 20-year-old guy sleeps with a 17-year-old girl he's a rapist but if a 17-year-old boy sleeps with an older woman he just got lucky? There are so many double-standards.

I honestly have no idea what can be done to make things more equal between the genders, so if anyone has any ideas I'd love to hear them.

 

[Arkaine]

To answer your questions Mat:

Should women be expected to take the same physical tests as men: Yes. There is *nothing* stopping a woman from being as strong as any man.

20 Year old Woman Sleeping with a 17 year old male: Still considered, lawfully, statutory rape.

That's why I say I'm an equalitist rather than a feminist. I don't believe in separating the sexes based on gender.

 

[ZorCrow]

Zorcrow...do you ever THINK before you post?

what the kind of ignorant, stereotypical, HALF nonsense are you posting here!?

Binder I don't want Barefoot and pregnant and in the kitchen. I want women to have all the rights men have, but socially and spiritually our roles in families and marriage are different and complement one another.

HOw is that sexist? Also, we have physical differences and social differences as well. Those are facts. Women can't raise their children BY THEMSELVES on average as good as men. I am sorry a family NEEDS BOTH a mother and a father.

The problem in our community is for various reasons too many single mothers doing it on their own.

 

[Karma]

Binder I don't want Barefoot and pregnant and in the kitchen. I want women to have all the rights men have, but socially and spiritually our roles in families and marriage are different and complement one another.

HOw is that sexist? Also, we have physical differences and social differences as well. Those are facts. Women can't raise their children BY THEMSELVES on average as good as men. I am sorry a family NEEDS BOTH a mother and a father.

The problem in our community is for various reasons too many single mothers doing it on their own.

im sorry to burst your bubble dear, but a woman CAN successfully raise her child as a single parent. the "nuclear family"..the idea of it is NO LONGER set in stone and there are VARIOUS "family" settings that work well for children all across america...including single parent families consisting of solely the mother or the father.

when MY parents divorced..i was HAPPY about it because my father was an asshole and he couldnt stand the fact that he couldnt "rule" my mother or me. my mother raised me by herself JUST FINE and was a fine example of a strong, formidable woman. i took her example with me as i grew up into womanhood and i've turned out just fine and i think you're statement is an INSULT to women all across america who are working HARD, making sacrifices and doing ALL THEY CAN to provide for their children AS A SINGLE PARENT. it can and DOES WORK. it is the PERCEPTION in america that the "nuclear" family is the ideal setting women do not NEED a man to raise a child successfully and in SOME CASES...the MAN will do more harm than good....what about the man who ABUSES his wife/children..and the wife only wants to "keep the family together so the children can have a father"...what kind of NONSENSE is that?

 

[ZorCrow]

im sorry to burst your bubble dear, but a woman CAN successfully raise her child as a single parent. the "nuclear family"..the idea of it is NO LONGER set in stone and there are VARIOUS "family" settings that work well for children all across america...including single parent families consisting of solely the mother or the father.

when MY parents divorced..i was HAPPY about it because my father was an asshole and he couldnt stand the fact that he couldnt "rule" my mother or me. my mother raised me by herself JUST FINE and was a fine example of a strong, formidable woman. i took her example with me as i grew up into womanhood and i've turned out just fine and i think you're statement is an INSULT to women all across america who are working HARD, making sacrifices and doing ALL THEY CAN to provide for their children AS A SINGLE PARENT. it can and DOES WORK. it is the PERCEPTION in america that the "nuclear" family is the ideal setting women do not NEED a man to raise a child successfully and in SOME CASES...the MAN will do more harm than good....what about the man who ABUSES his wife/children..and the wife only wants to "keep the family together so the children can have a father"...what kind of NONSENSE is that?

Binder, good for you in your situation, However, the social numbers and studies don't lie. Kids need their father and their mother in their lives in a positive way. My community the black community is suffering because we have too many women with your attitude and view and what has it gotten us? The highest incarcaration rate, the highest teen pregnancy rate, and a mega high HIV rate, also high unemployment rates. These things are more than economics, they are social-nomics.

For example, instead of instilling values in their children single mothers have to work and have to work hard and spend few time with their childen, leaving them to be raised by a negative environment. Studies and science and harsh realities blow your opinion to shreads. Women who have a closer relationship a postive with their fathers, are less likely to have promiscious sex, and children out of wedlock, no matter what economic condition they are in.

Binder it has been genoicidal the scourge of single parentness in our America. Malcom X, Sean Hannity, MLK, Louis Farakhan, Jesse Jackson,
Michelle Malkin, Liberals and Conservatives, Muslims and Athiests,
all agree that men are needed in making the home and in raising of children.

If you doubt it, take a walk down to the U.S. Marshal lock up and ask the inmates how many of them had a positive father relationship or a relationship with their father at all. You'll find very few who did.

 

[DonDaddyD]

Spellbinder.

My Grandma raised eight children mostly without her Husband, my Uncle and Aunts all turned out fine it CAN work. I know of Fathers who raise their children without Mothers they turned out fine, it CAN be done. Though, me coming from a Family where the Men (including my own Father) would sooner die than be separated from their children; I think it almost insensitive of you Spellbinder to even imply that families do not need Fathers (I would have put insulting but equally I do not want to trivialize your personal experience). I understand your personal experience but I look back at mine and I find what you are saying utterly one-sided/short sighted. I personally know that the success rate of a single parent family is dependant on how the Mother or Father left the family, as the child or children could either grow to resent the remaining parent or alternatively simply want to protect and support that remaining parent. The success rate is also dependant on how well that remaining parent can adjust too the role of being a single parent. So it is not always a given that Mothers can do without Fathers, nor is it a given that Men alone do more harm than good, I can give you many examples of bad parenting on the part of the Mother. 'If it takes two people to create life then it should naturally take two people to develop that life.' - The Father has just as much an influence on their child as the Mother does, whehter he is there or not, that circumstance affects that childs developement.

In England there are movements that encourage strong male role models for children especially young black boys lost within the influence of negativity around them, because that is the key factor missing in their development into this society.

I am truly thankful that the Men in my family have stuck around as they did, each of them adding too my whole of being a Man that has been shaped that will eventually become one half of the pillars supporting a family, I know how much you respect me for being me, so to read you saying that a family doesn't need a Man is nearly insulting to me given my life influences, experience and what I've grown up to believe. - That is me putting it nicely.

 

[ZorCrow]

DDD,

James Evans Sr. would be proud. I am glad someone is understanding what I am saying to Spellbinder. It's like Chris Rock said, "Just because
a man can live without a leg doesn't mean he needs both legs." It CAN be done, but men need to be in their children's lives in a POSITIVE WAY.

Most men I know are excellent fathers, the guys I work with, the guys I work for, the pastor of my Church, Many of My Uncles, Many, Many, Many other men the vast multide are not the adulterizing, leaving the children in the cold, where's my supper woman!, abusive jerks that we see in the media and that are portrayed that way in the media.

Rip Hamilton speaks of his Dad being an influence in his life, Lavar Arrington, Heisman trophy winner Reggie Bush, speaks of the role that his step father played in his life, Shaquille O' Neal, his biological father was a bad one, but his Step Father, that's his DAD. . . many successful men
are here because of BOTH MOTHER AND FATHER. Heck look at Dubya Bush his dad's political power got him in the white house. Ice Cube says the reason he didn't do dope, sell dope or join a gang because his dad would have beat his butt.

The purpose of the Movie Boyz n the Hood showed that Men need to be men and only men can teach boys to be men. Why do you think the military is so successful? YOu got men teaching boys how to be men.

The best basic military training is the famous Marine Corps. What do they do? They train men and women separately and are better off for it.

Men are needed Binder, Father are needed, not all fathers are like yours or like mine.